Season Recap – Predictions for the Future of HR

Connect with David:

• 
• 
• david.turetsky@salary.com

Connect with Dwight:

• 
• dwight.brown@salary.com

Podcast Manager, Karissa Harris:

• HRDataLabs@salary.com

 

Production by Affogato Media

Resources:

• Consulting Practice
• HR Data Labs Season 7 Episode 1
• HR Data Labs Season 6 Episode 24

• “My prediction is that we’re going to see a ton of upheaval in the ESG space as well as the DEI space [in the next six months].” -Dwight Brown
• “Because of some of the court cases and backlash, . . . I think we’re going to start to see more clamping on what AI can do in the world of HR.” -David Turetsky

Announcer: 0:02

Here's an experiment for you. Take passionate experts in human resource technology, invite cross industry experts from inside and outside HR. Mix in what's happening in people analytics today. Give them the technology to connect, hit record for their discussions into a beaker. Mix thoroughly. And voila, you get the HR Data Labs podcast, where we explore the impact of data and analytics to your business. We may get passionate, and even irreverent, that count on each episode challenging and enhancing your understanding of the way people data can be used to solve real world problems. Now, here's your host, David Turetsky.

David Turetsky: 0:46

Hello, and welcome to the HR Data Labs podcast. I am your host, David Turetsky alongside my friend, and trusty co host, Dwight Brown from Salary.com. Dwight, how are thy self?

Dwight Brown: 0:57

David, I am doing well. I'm not in cold weather. And I couldn't be happier about it. But it's cold by by our standards here. But

David Turetsky: 1:06

Yes, well, it's very cold here and there's snow on the ground. And by the time this actually comes out a little more than a month. I'm sure there'll be more snow on the ground.

Dwight Brown: 1:16

Lucky you!

David Turetsky: 1:17

Yeah, great. Well, you know, people say they love to have seasons. I don't. But there you go. So a couple things that I think everybody knows that we do these end of season podcasts. And this is the end of season six. And I'm kind of sorry to see this one go because we covered an enormous amount of ground this season. We're going to talk about that coming up. And we'll talk a little bit about some of the ways in which we hope season seven goes I know it's it's early on, but we'll talk a little bit about that. But Dwight, before we get there, what's one fun thing that has happened to you over the next over the last six months that no one knows about, Dwight Brown?

Dwight Brown: 1:59

Oh, let's see here. Okay, so I can't remember if I have ever talked about being a paraglider on this.

David Turetsky: 2:07

Oh,yes. You have a million times!

Dwight Brown: 2:08

A million times. Okay. Yeah. I just love it that much. So one thing that happened to me

David Turetsky: 2:16

You make my heart go crazy, because you know, yeah,

Dwight Brown: 2:19

Yeah, this drives David nuts.

David Turetsky: 2:21

Nuts.

Dwight Brown: 2:22

He wants me to take up knitting. But

David Turetsky: 2:25

No knitting has got needles, dude! Can you take up something that's a little less dangerous? Not sewing, sewing's got needles too.

Dwight Brown: 2:36

Well, you know, living where I live, just driving to a restaurant or driving anywhere is an adrenaline sport in and of itself. But, so over the last six months with my paragliding, I was able to achieve my next rating in terms of my pilot's license. And so, I, I have been utilizing that and flying and having fun and the occasional scrape and everything else that goes with it.

David Turetsky: 3:06

Awesome. That's great. That's great to know. So what are you like orange or red now in terms of your your belt? Paragliding belt?

Dwight Brown: 3:15

It's like the Department of Homeland Security. Exactly. Yeah, no, I'm I'm getting into well, I'm progressing out of red and moving toward orange. You know, it's supposedly more experience and higher rating. Your safety is a little bit better. That could be debatable, but

David Turetsky: 3:34

DEF CON one then

Dwight Brown: 3:35

DEF CON one, exactly. Exactly. Great. Well. How about you?

David Turetsky: 3:41

Mazel Tov, by the way. I'm sure everybody's sitting at home going well, I wonder what experience it's like screaming all the time.

Dwight Brown: 3:54

Exactly it and loving every minute of it.

David Turetsky: 3:57

Yeah, I'm sure I'm sure. For me. Everybody knows me. I'm an open book. I kind of open everything up, especially on LinkedIn. So I couldn't say that the third season of HR Data Doodles will be out by this point when this gets released. So episode one or sorry, season one was really kind of a recap of the the episodes that we had put out as Turetsky Consulting and Episode Two or sorry, season two. Not that season two is was the back to work. Season Three is actually called season 3D. And it's HR Data Doodle season 3D into the HR Metaverse, which is going to be really cool. It's got a really good AI and three dimensional gaming flavor to it. So it'll be fun.

Dwight Brown: 4:50

Nice.

David Turetsky: 4:51

No holograms, though.

Dwight Brown: 4:52

Oh, is that an is that in the next one?

David Turetsky: 4:57

No, but I was thinking about doing the hologram for the cover but that would be very expensive to produce and probably more expensive than the entire book!

Dwight Brown: 5:04

I can only imagine!

David Turetsky: 5:06

Yes, yes. But no. So what we do on every season ending episode is we go when we take a look back at the episodes that we recorded within the season, we talk a little bit about that. And then we'll have a the next part will be to talk a little bit about what we're hoping for for season seven, can't believe season seven. And then then we'll round up the episode by talking about our predictions that we had for season six, or that we had done in season five. And then we'll do our season six, end of season predictions, which will be fun.

Dwight Brown: 5:42

Yes, always is.

David Turetsky: 5:52

So Dwight, let's talk a little bit about season six, it was a very big season, because not only did we have a bunch of episodes, in fact, we had more than our normal 25. Because if you if you actually look at the number of episodes that we did, I think we did 34 episodes, because we had a bunch of bonus episodes that were in there, too! And so we instead of doing what we had done in the past, which was stretch our HR Technology episodes over a season, we actually embedded them into every Tuesday. So we release on Thursday, we released on Tuesday. So this year, we chose to put them in and sprinkle them in as kind of bonus episodes, so they don't get counted into our episodes, but they're bonus. And so they do increase the number of, of episodes that you can listen to. And so we had some fascinating ones. But this time, we actually had 34 episodes in season six, doesn't seem like it, does it?

Dwight Brown: 6:51

No, it really doesn't. In fact, when I was looking back, I was scrolling down and it just kept going and going going.

David Turetsky: 7:00

Going. Yeah.

Dwight Brown: 7:01

Did we really have this many episodes? Yeah!

David Turetsky: 7:04

And we did.

Dwight Brown: 7:05

And a lot of content, a lot of good, diverse content.

David Turetsky: 7:08

It was surprising actually how diverse the content was. But I mean, if you look at the now, with this episode, it will be 159 episodes.

Dwight Brown: 7:17

Yep,

David Turetsky: 7:17

that we have produced and released. We've covered an incredible amount of range in the world of human resources, human resource technology, data and process.

Dwight Brown: 7:27

Yeah. It's nice. You know, it's interesting. Now that we've got 159 episodes of runway behind us, we now are able to actually look back toward the beginning and see how things have changed how much they've changed just in that. What is it about three years that we've been doing this all together?

David Turetsky: 7:48

Yeah. Little more than three years. Yeah. Well, what's fascinating is, you know, to go back to the original roots of the podcast, it was supposed to be about HR data analytics, right?

Dwight Brown: 7:57

Yep.

David Turetsky: 7:58

And, you know, eventually, we kind of veered off of that strict path and went more towards everything HR process, HR, technology, compliance, other things, because that's the way that audience and the guests were pushing us.

Dwight Brown: 8:15

Right.

David Turetsky: 8:16

It's okay. We don't mind. We love it.

Dwight Brown: 8:19

Exactly.

David Turetsky: 8:20

One area that I definitely think we have not stepped into as much or should, or things like in the OD world, but we'll talk about that when we get to season seven upcoming things.

Dwight Brown: 8:30

Yeah.

David Turetsky: 8:31

Let's dive into season six a little bit and talk about, as you were saying, the variety of things we talked about. And what's fascinating is we started off season six, by really staying with a topic that we had covered a lot of which was diversity, equity, and inclusion and belonging, we covered off on pay transparency a lot. And then we started to veer into the world of artificial intelligence. Because that was obviously one of the hotter topics that had started to really kind of peak its head up in the September timeframe. And I mean, yeah, we've been talking about AI a lot over the last couple seasons, but it really started in this in this series.

Dwight Brown: 9:19

Yeah.

David Turetsky: 9:20

Really came up as being the hottest topic,

Dwight Brown: 9:22

Right. The whole chat GPT thing really put it into fast forward from what it had been. I mean, it was moving fast before as it was, but that whole thing kind of upset the applecart.

David Turetsky: 9:35

It really did. And so we started to see after several conversations about DEI we started switching over and probably halfway through the season started focusing much more on the power of AI and how it is impacting the world of HR technology. And especially if you look at the HR technology episodes, the bonus episodes, I don't think we had one conversation in Las Vegas that didn't have AI is at least a small component of the conversation, although, because everything at the HR Technology Conference had the letters AI in it.

Dwight Brown: 10:14

Exactly, even even outside the conferences, everything has AI in it!

David Turetsky: 10:20

Literally. Yeah. My first name has an AI in it. But the second name doesn't quite so. But But I think this is going to be a trend that we're going to start to see happen more often now. And, you know, I don't think you can ignore it, because it is going to impact our jobs, our lives at some point soon. And while I don't think the robots are taking over yet, which we've talked about, and which we'll probably talk about during our predictions, we can definitely see how they can help. Right,

Dwight Brown: 10:50

Right. Yeah, I think we're, I think we're stepping into something. It's a lot like the Industrial Revolution, I think we are currently witnessing a momentous event like that.

David Turetsky: 11:01

Oh, yeah.

Dwight Brown: 11:02

And just like, then it's scary for people. And there's, you know, we don't know where it's gonna go. But you can see why it's such a hot topic for, for everything. Everybody's talking about it. Everybody's going to be impacted by it. Yeah, I think he's gonna stay on the, on the forefront of people's minds for quite a while.

David Turetsky: 11:22

Absolutely. And we saw there were a couple of episodes that were actually focused on that the one that we have with Al Adamson at HR Tech, the one we had with Mark Miller, which focused on AI impacting HR, a lot of those were not our first conversations about it, but they deeply kind of touched on, as you said, the how are they going to impact us? Right?

Dwight Brown: 11:43

Yeah, exactly.

David Turetsky: 11:45

And then, you know, one of the other themes that was touched on very lightly, but was really impactful was the episode that we had with Brian and Walt, which was on paychecks and payroll, and one of the things that we've kind of ignored, and there are some topics we've currently, we just totally ignored throughout the entire HR Data Labs. And that one was payroll. And one of the reasons is because those two actually run a really phenomenal podcast called, It's All About Payroll. And I was on their podcast two months ago, three months ago. And they're just two brilliant guys. And what they're trying to do is demystify the world of payroll, not just for payroll practitioners who are in it every day, who are mystifying as examples of, of the brilliant human beings that make sure we're paid correctly. But, but really trying to demystify it for others as well, especially in HR, so that, you know, we all understand how that happens, how it all affects the company, how it affects people. And so, you know, I really enjoyed that conversation we have with them.

Dwight Brown: 12:48

You know, it's interesting, because much like AI, you're starting to hear a lot more about payroll, especially in terms of getting paid as you go.

David Turetsky: 12:56

Yep.

Dwight Brown: 12:57

And it's interesting to see, it was interesting to hear from them. And it's also interesting to see this, this trend in the market where that we see playing out and and it's another it's just another milestone in terms of, of where we are and where we're headed. And you wonder, you know, how, how much is that gonna become the norm for people? And what's the, you know, what, what's the primary driver of that? I think that's still playing out.

David Turetsky: 13:29

Yeah. And it will play out. I mean, the technology is getting to that place where we can be more sophisticated about someone who earned $1. And then when do you release that dollar to them?

Dwight Brown: 13:40

Right?

David Turetsky: 13:41

Because the more that the company holds, that they're earning the interest on that float, because it's owed to the employee. And then when the employee gets paid, obviously, that clears, right? The now the employee can do whatever they want with that money. So the technology is getting to a place where we're able much more real time to calculate and then pay that gross to net. So that person can utilize the money they earned.

Dwight Brown: 14:06

Right? Exactly.

David Turetsky: 14:08

I do think the laws need to catch up with that a little bit. The laws are relatively antiquated about it.

Dwight Brown: 14:13

Right.

David Turetsky: 14:14

But California is on top of that, you know, California basically says that, and I'm paraphrasing here, but that, you know, when you earn it, and if you walk away, you can get paid that at the end of that week, I think it is.

Dwight Brown: 14:26

it'll be interesting to see kind of, you know, this is kind of a tangent, but it'll be interesting to see what happens with the payday loan industry, whether that impacts that industry. And, you know, you gotta believe that a lot of this is driven by more of the regulation of the payday loan market out there.

David Turetsky: 14:45

Well, it's really sad that there are people there are lots of people who are living paycheck to paycheck and it causes them tremendous amounts of stress to wait for that to happen. And, you know, if if the laws get to that stage and people can take advantage of it, you know, I'm all for that so that that stress can get relieved.

Dwight Brown: 15:04

Yeah, my hope is that it does have a good impact on on people and puts more money in their pocket and lessen the pocket of the payday loan people.

David Turetsky: 15:14

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Announcer: 15:17

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David Turetsky: 15:26

So let's talk a little bit about some of the areas we're hoping to cover in 2024, season seven, because one of the things that I'd love to do is I'd love to talk more about some of the areas that we don't touch on a lot. One of those areas I had mentioned was payroll, and maybe we'll get some, some more guests to come on in the payroll world. But also, I'd love to talk more about learning and education and learning and training, because we really haven't touched on that a lot, too. And they're really huge consumers of data, of HR data, of HR process, and they are a key component of HR.

Dwight Brown: 16:03

Yeah, definitely.

David Turetsky: 16:04

And everybody loves going to training programs, don't they?

Dwight Brown: 16:07

We all, I live for training.

David Turetsky: 16:10

Well, yeah! I actually enjoy, I actually enjoy the time I spend in training, as long as it's kept fun and light and the training does add value to us. So I'm also looking forward to talking about that, given that it can close a lot of issues that we've seen that we've actually talked about in terms of re-skilling and training for other roles. So yeah, you know, let's hope we're able to get some trajectory for some guests to be able to help us fill that need as well.

Dwight Brown: 16:39

Yeah, definitely another tangential topic to the whole AI equation is we're going to need to retool and, you know, having the modalities to do that effectively for employees is going to be necessary.

David Turetsky: 16:53

Good word modalities.

Dwight Brown: 16:56

I had to I had to take a little pause there and open up my dictionary.

David Turetsky: 17:03

dictionary.com

Dwight Brown: 17:04

Exactly!

David Turetsky: 17:07

Well, you know, every once in a while, I have to do the same too because my mother always told me to use SAT words and then I use them and have to look them up afterwards and go, Oh, yeah, that meant,

Dwight Brown: 17:17

That's what that was!

David Turetsky: 17:18

or the difference between than and then and try and make sure it's correct. Thank goodness for AI to fix that during our grammar checks when we go and send emails. But what are the other areas that you'd like to start talking about for season seven? Is there anything that's in particular that's been bugging you that you'd love to have on the show?

Dwight Brown: 17:39

You know, I think it all is, is around that theme of of AI and the you know, the other? The other piece that I would like to touch on that I don't think that we've done much of is really the job search arena. And how people are effectively doing job searching and here's, here's why I say that I've got a I've got a friend, right now that's looking to make a change in her career. And we were talking the other night about how she's how she's doing that. And she's been looking through LinkedIn and looking at the postings, but also thinking about her network and kind of realizing that she stands a better chance with her network. And it's I mean, this is an age old topic. It's there's nothing new about this, but it's a piece that we haven't covered is really how, how do people most effectively make the job changes that they want to make or get that first job, you know? So I would I would definitely like to touch on that a little more heavily than we have in the past.

David Turetsky: 18:51

That's a good one. And we've had conversations with Adriana DiNenno, where we've talked about recruiting, we've talked a little bit about the job search. For those of you who may remember, we talked about the fact that she actually put out a book, that that kind of chronicled her early struggles with being able to get a job. And you know, what kind of frustrations that caused in her personal life as well as in her professional life.

Dwight Brown: 19:16

Right.

David Turetsky: 19:17

And so, you know, that's it's definitely a really interesting part of the world of HR that I think we forget a lot, which is the friction that gets caused when either someone leaves a role or when someone's trying to find one. And you know, what that does to a person and how that affects them. And the those transitions in life have been so tough.

Dwight Brown: 19:41

Yeah, I mean, it can feel almost traumatic as you're as you're going through it. Right?

David Turetsky: 19:46

Well, well, the way she puts it is it's more like PTSD where you need to try and have you either post for jobs and then you hear back five seconds later that you're not qualified or that you're an awesome candidate, but we're going to choose other we're going to the directions. Oh, took you all five seconds to figure that out? And then and then the other ones that don't do you either interview with and you don't hear back from or you talk to a scheduler and then never hear again. So, you know, the ghosting problem in the world of recruiting is not fun.

Dwight Brown: 20:20

It's terrible. It's so terrible that

David Turetsky: 20:22

It's almost worse than the dating world.

Dwight Brown: 20:26

I don't know. I'm not sure I agree with that. But

David Turetsky: 20:31

Well, we'll have to debate that at some other time.

Dwight Brown: 20:33

Yeah, we'll do the dating world as an episode. We'll go on Bumble and Hinge and see where we end up.

David Turetsky: 20:39

That's not a bad idea. Not a bad idea. I think that would be a fascinating topic of conversation. And then what we can do is invite Hinge, Bumble, plenty of fish, Tinder, as well as some of the other quote unquote dating apps onto the program to talk about, you know, what makes them different? And why should someone join their technology?

Dwight Brown: 20:59

Yeah, exactly. And how, what's the parallel HR on that?

David Turetsky: 21:04

Good, really good. Well, I mean, there's tons of parallels, right?

Dwight Brown: 21:08

Oh totally!

David Turetsky: 21:09

I mean, there is employment at will. So you know, you can break up with your company at any time. Instead of going on LinkedIn, you can or go instead of going on Tinder, you can go on LinkedIn, and just find another job immediately.

Dwight Brown: 21:20

Oh, my God, you and I probably need to sit down and write our funny list of parallels, because I think we could come up with some really hilarious content for an episode

David Turetsky: 21:29

I think that would be great. I think one on that one. episode will do funny parallels with HR. I'll have to remember that one. Pull this out of the transcript to remember that.

Dwight Brown: 21:37

Right.

David Turetsky: 21:38

Some of the other really cool things that we're going to do during season seven, we will have gone to ADPs meeting of the minds, we will have gone to ADP pro Conference, which is for their major account clients. We will also have gone to, I think within the context of season seven, we will also have gone to, Yeah, we will have gone to SHRM and World at Work as well. So there's lots of conferences there, dude.

Dwight Brown: 22:02

Yeah, a lot, a lot of potential learning that we have. I'm looking forward to that.

David Turetsky: 22:08

Me too

Dwight Brown: 22:09

See that's the kind of training that I love is the conference training.

David Turetsky: 22:13

Well, we definitely have to get you on the road this year. Because for those of you who don't remember, Dwight doesn't go to conference or hadn't gone to many conferences. We've gone to a couple but

Dwight Brown: 22:22

Yeah, don't don't send me to Vegas, though.

David Turetsky: 22:24

Actually, very few this year are actually in Vegas, I think. HR Tech obviously is the at the you know, third calendar quarter. But before then we have lots that have nothing to do with Vegas. Chicago, San San Diego, Cincinnati for World at Work.

Dwight Brown: 22:40

I'll pick any of those over over Vegas.

David Turetsky: 22:44

Did they kick you out of Vegas again?

Dwight Brown: 22:49

You're not supposed to know about that!

David Turetsky: 22:51

Oh, well. That's alright. That's another one fun thing.

Dwight Brown: 22:54

Yeah, exactly. That's my next one fun thing. Yeah, I got kicked out of Vegas.

David Turetsky: 22:59

Yeah, it takes a lot to get kicked out of Vegas by the way. If you've seen the Hangover series, you know that that's true.

Dwight Brown: 23:07

Yeah, no, Vegas is alright. But it's, I'm one of those it's not as in love with it, as a lot of people are.

David Turetsky: 23:15

See, I've gone back and forth. But I actually love Las Vegas now. And I've embraced it.

Dwight Brown: 23:21

That's good! That's good.

David Turetsky: 23:23

Hey, listen, it's the one place in the world that I can run down Main Street. And you know, pretty much on an on a daily basis know that it's going to be warm enough to run, that it's not going to rain.

Dwight Brown: 23:36

So So where I thought you were going with that was It's the one place in the world where you can run down Main Street naked.

David Turetsky: 23:44

Yeah, no, no, remember, this is not an E program.

Dwight Brown: 23:48

I know. I was like, Oh God, where's he going with this? Where's he going with this?

David Turetsky: 23:52

No one wants to see that, Dwight. Literally no one wants to see me in that way.

Dwight Brown: 23:57

Face for radio?

David Turetsky: 23:59

Yes, face and everything for radio?

Dwight Brown: 24:01

Well, that they'd say the same about me. So

David Turetsky: 24:06

Hey, are you listening to this and thinking to yourself, Man, I wish I could talk to David about this. Well, you're in luck. We have a special offer for listeners of the HR Data Labs podcast, a free half hour call with me about any of the topics we cover on the podcast or whatever is on your mind. Go to Salary.com/HRDLconsulting to schedule your FREE 30 minute call today. So let's move on to the next chapter of this episode, which is talking about our predictions for the last six months because we had predicted certain things to have happened within the context of the season six timeframe.

Dwight Brown: 24:50

Let's do it. This is fun.

David Turetsky: 24:51

This is. So Dwight, let's start with your prediction. So your prediction? I'm going to go back in the Wayback Machine. It started it 26:02 For those viewers who are playing along at home, season five, Episode 25, 26:02 is the timeframe. And Dwight said as of 27:50, my prediction so anyway, my prediction is that we're going to see a whole lot of movement, we're gonna see some movement over the next six months in terms of integration of AI, more advanced AI into the technology that we use on an ongoing basis. What do you think, Dwight?

Dwight Brown: 25:27

My fascination with AI that keeps coming through?

David Turetsky: 25:31

It is. It is, but I think that was a good one. I think we're going to give that one a big thumbs up!

Dwight Brown: 25:37

Seems like we definitely saw a lot of movement with it. And it's like, everything's in hyperspeed at this point, after the whole GPT chat GPT thing?

David Turetsky: 25:47

Oh, yeah. So I think your prediction was spot on. So we're gonna give you 100% on that one.

Dwight Brown: 25:53

I get the gold medal.

David Turetsky: 25:54

You do. Now, let's see, was mine equally as good? So we go to marker of that same episode. And it's an here's what I said, I'm going to stay on track with pay transparency, that there's going to be more states that sign up for transparency, knowing full well, this is an election season, we're going to start to hear of a lot of political candidates coming out inside both sides of the DEI spectrum. And that I think pay transparency is going to be one of those things, it gets more airtime because it deserves it. Because right now, we're disenfranchising too many damn people, without having the ability to know what we what pay should be. So all those states that are tangentially affected right now, because they don't have laws about it, but they're affected because their neighbors do their neighboring states do. I think they're going to start to get and implement some pay transparency laws. So I don't need to go on, we can tell that part of this is absolutely not true. It did not happen that more states got on the bandwagon. So I think I get a, I think I get a low grade for that prediction. But I did read in there that candidates are coming on out on both sides of the DEI spectrum. So I can get partial credit on that, because we just saw two really huge announcements a few weeks ago, I think it was that Bill Ackman, who is who is an activist investor, who really gave the former Wharton president a lot of crap for their stance on anti semitism. He came out and was basically also saying the DEI programs were actually a form of racism. And then we saw Elon Musk come out afterwards and say, yeah, what he said. So. So, by the way, I think both of those people are full of crap, but okay.

Dwight Brown: 27:51

Well, yeah. But now we know that Elon Musk also is an illegal drug user, according to the Wall Street Journal. So that could

David Turetsky: 27:59

So in Dwight Brown's opinion.

Dwight Brown: 28:02

No, that's not my opinion. That's not my opinion. I'm just going by the headlines in the Wall Street Journal that all!

David Turetsky: 28:08

Well okay as long as it was quoted somewhere, and we're just quoting, so

Dwight Brown: 28:11

Yes, no, this is this is totally. Elon, don't hold it against me. Okay.

David Turetsky: 28:18

No, well. So anyways, I think that what we've seen on that is that there are some people who have come out on obviously, on the other side of DEI, and said that it's actually a form of racism, which I, as I said, I think is a load of crap. But so that that part of the prediction did hold. So I give myself a 50% on the prediction.

Dwight Brown: 28:39

I'm gonna give you I'm going to give you more credit on the pay transparency, too, because, yeah, there. We didn't see as many states enact pay transparency laws. But one of the things that I'm noticing just in our practice here is we're working with companies. There's a big push toward pay transparencies just at the company level. So I think people are getting the message. And I think it is moving forward. Yeah. Didn't come through legislation. But I'll I'll give it to you with that. All right.

David Turetsky: 29:08

All right. So there you go. So let's give Dwight Brown the A plus. And I'll take a C then how about that?

Dwight Brown: 29:18

I'll give you a B.

David Turetsky: 29:19

No, I don't deserve a B! I deserve a C.

Dwight Brown: 29:24

You deserves an A, you know but

David Turetsky: 29:27

All right, well, but now so you have to put on your your prediction hat though. So I'm going to because I'll play rank here. So you're gonna go first on your predictions, because, you know, it's also better to go first because then you have everything that to look at from a playing field

Dwight Brown: 29:46

Yeah, I can go first. So this actually plays a perspective. little bit off of what you predicted last time, but my prediction is that we're going to see a ton of upheaval in the ESG space as well as the DEI space. And you know, you, you named two events in the DEI space that really upset things. I think we're gonna see a lot of upheaval reversal, whatever you want to call it in the ESG arena, we're starting to see some of it actually ESG and DEI, I'm putting those together. And we're seeing a lot of backlash with those. And I think that backlash is gonna get worse and worse. Now, let me tell you the context of what I see with this. I think it's all part of the lifecycle of things like that moving forward, there's always going to be two steps forward one step back, there's always going to be debate on both sides of the aisle, there's always going to be a very powerful group that pushes against it. And I think it's natural evolution. And so I don't see that, you know, some might hear my prediction and say, well, he, he thinks that all this is gonna go by the wayside, and we're gonna go back to the way we were. No, not at all, we're never going back to the way we were, we're gonna keep moving forward with it. But this is just a natural part of the lifecycle. So prediction for the near future, we're probably not going to see a ton of movement then the next six months, but I think we are going to see the movement and I think we're going to see it go on, in perpetuity for many years to come.

David Turetsky: 31:28

Okay, that's fascinating. I, you know, I gotta be honest with you, I love ESGs as a as a way of being able to provide people with a safe space to feel comfortable. And so I'm a big fan of them.

Dwight Brown: 31:43

As am I! But there's a groundswell out there I can think of a lot of other dirty words in corporate against them. And companies are, companies are getting really powerful pushback right now. In that space, and they're having to there are some companies that are totally doing away with the term ESGs. They it doesn't mean they're doing away with the groups. I think it may just be our rebranding, that's happening. But it is definitely happening out there right now. Yeah, in fact, there's a there is a there's a headline, there was an article, I read the article in today's Wall Street Journal on that the latest dirty word in corporate America ESG. America, that will not make it on our program, Right?

David Turetsky: 32:39

Because this is a non-explicit program. But yeah, I don't think of it as a dirty word.

Dwight Brown: 32:45

I don't think of it either!

David Turetsky: 32:46

I understand what you're saying. I just I think that that's, I think that's kind of going towards a lot of the other things that the Wall Street Journal says are out of favor. In some cases, I think the Wall Street Journal's blowing smoke, but we'll see.

Dwight Brown: 33:01

Yeah, it's like any news outlet. They're always going to have their slant on it. But but I've seen it in other in other media outlets, too. And we'll see.

David Turetsky: 33:11

That's your prediction!

Dwight Brown: 33:12

That's my prediction, I could be very, very wrong.

David Turetsky: 33:15

No. Now, well maybe, sometimes, but

Dwight Brown: 33:20

I am too, don't ask my family.

David Turetsky: 33:22

So my prediction is going to go a little bit different than yours. I'm going to borrow yours a little bit from last time and talk a little bit about artificial intelligence. But I'm gonna go a little against the grain. And I'm gonna say that because of some of the court cases, and because of some of the backlash for not just the European Union, but for other entities around the world, I think we're going to start to see more clamping on what artificial intelligence can do in the world of HR, and start to narrow some of the focus to certain areas and away from other areas. And it's only six months so it can't really change too dramatically. But it could if there are legislation that prevent AI from more direct involvement. And I'm pointing specifically at some of the, you know, we talked about the Workday case on the program not too long ago. And I think that came up with Marc Miller, we were talking about AI. But I think that's one of the examples where we may actually see the algorithms used to come under more scrutiny.

Dwight Brown: 34:32

Right.

David Turetsky: 34:32

So my prediction is AI in HR will get scrutinized more based on some of the court cases that are out there. And some of the legislation, especially from the European Union and some other entities.

Dwight Brown: 34:43

Yeah, I think you're exactly right. I think people have realized a lot of the destructive power of AI, as sometimes I think we focus on that a little bit too much, but actually, I shouldn't say too much. Sometimes it feels like that, that's the biggest piece of that we see but yeah, I think with that, and with those thought leaders that had been intimately involved in it saying, hey, this got some pretty significant power for badness. That's your canary in a coal mine there that.

David Turetsky: 35:19

Yeah.

Dwight Brown: 35:20

So I'm with you on that one. I think there is going to be a lot more clamping down, like you said.

David Turetsky: 35:26

Yeah. Well, and we'll see, dude, it's only six months away. So you know, yeah, end of episode. And sorry, end of season seven, we're gonna come back and see which one of us was more full of crap.

Dwight Brown: 35:39

Well, we're both full of crap. But yeah,

David Turetsky: 35:42

I mean, we're full of crap. But you know, how much more

Dwight Brown: 35:44

Right.

David Turetsky: 35:46

It's all relative. You know, that's one of the things I also want to say for season seven is I think we're going to take a little bit different direction and start to acknowledge the fact it's not all about data. It's not all about HR analytics. And we may have to change some of the intro and some of the other areas of the HR Data Labs, because that's kind of it was our lineage. Yeah, but I think we're gonna have to probably rerecord some of that. You know, it's not about analytics and data anymore, all of it. But you know, we'll we'll fix, we'll fix that.

Dwight Brown: 36:22

Oh, for sure.

David Turetsky: 36:31

So, dude, is there anything else you want to bring up? As far as the HR Data Labs podcast season six, looking back?

Dwight Brown: 36:37

No. I mean, it's so cool being able to look back on almost three years worth of podcasting, how how far the show has come. I mean, think of the coolness of all the guests that we've that we've had on. That's 159 people that we've talked to actually, in some cases, we've had two people that had been on. So it's more than that. Now, some pretty significant brain power that we've we've had the privilege of being able to, to be a part of.

David Turetsky: 37:10

One of the things that I would echo your sentiments and say one of the other really cool things is we found out that the show is actually in the top 10th percentile of podcasts globally, as far as the number of downloads and the longevity of the podcast. So pretty amazing. Oh, of course, we're not Joe Rogan numbers here. So don't don't think I'm

Dwight Brown: 37:34

But we must be hitting the mark of what people want and that feels awesome to know that we're putting these things out there that people want to hear that they're probably learning from.

David Turetsky: 37:44

Heck, the fact that they're actually just listening to us. Sorry, everybody, if my ears if your ears have bled because of things I've said, I apologize.

Dwight Brown: 37:54

Yeah, they want to hear the guest, not us.

David Turetsky: 37:56

Yes, definitely. So we understand. But anyways, thank you very much for all of your support and your help, Dwight, you're awesome. I really appreciate your being. You know who you are. And You mean everything to me in this podcast. And I really appreciate being able to spend the last six seasons with you.

Dwight Brown: 38:15

Yeah, likewise, dude, this has been such a journey for us. And yeah, I can't think of anybody who I would want to be beside me as we go through this journey. And no, and we've got such a great friendship and has continued to develop partially through this.

David Turetsky: 38:32

Yeah, so it's definitely not because you paraglide but you know,

Dwight Brown: 38:35

Exactly.

David Turetsky: 38:36

despite the fact that you paraglide.

Dwight Brown: 38:38

There's conflict in every relationship.

David Turetsky: 38:43

Honey, could you please stop paragliding? No, I don't want to!

Dwight Brown: 38:48

Don't worry, the life insurance is paid up.

David Turetsky: 38:51

You're, you're on there? No, but seriously, you know, I appreciate it, Dwight. You're, you've been awesome. And I want to thank all the other people that go into making the podcast, whether it's Karissa or Carl, or Stela, Eric Bristol or some of the other folks that that help us out every day, we really do appreciate everything you do. Yeah. And beyond that group, as well. And also, thank you for listening. We don't do this without actually having people who download this damn thing. So

Dwight Brown: 39:18

Yeah, our listeners are the best.

David Turetsky: 39:20

Yes, yes. And so thank you so much. We appreciate you. We love you. And if you want to hear something from us that you haven't heard that, or you want us to double down on, we're happy to do that as well. Just let us know. Take care and stay safe.

Announcer: 39:36

That was the HR Data Labs podcast. If you liked the episode, please subscribe. And if you know anyone that might like to hear it, please send it their way. Thank you for joining us this week, and stay tuned for our next episode. Stay safe