Karen Catlin – Creating More Inclusive Workplaces with Everyday Acts of Allyship

Connect with Karen Catlin:

• 

Connect with David:

• 
• 
• david.turetsky@salary.com

Connect with Dwight:

• 
• dwight.brown@salary.com

Podcast Manager, Karissa Harris:

• HRDataLabs@salary.com

 

Production by Affogato Media

Resources:

• Karen’s Books
• HR Data Labs Season 6 Episode 24
• HR Data Labs Season 6 Episode 22

• “People don’t want to be better allies, or speak up, or do something because they are afraid of getting it wrong.”
• “You can take action for one person, but then ask yourself if there’s something you can do to have a larger, systemic impact that really would be ideal for your organization.”

Announcer: 0:02

Here's an experiment for you. Take passionate experts in human resource technology. Invite cross industry experts from inside and outside HR. Mix in what's happening in people analytics today. Give them the technology to connect, hit record, pour their discussions into a beaker, mix thoroughly. And voila, you get the HR Data Labs podcast, where we explore the impact of data and analytics to your business. We may get passionate and even irreverent, that count on each episode challenging and enhancing your understanding of the way people data can be used to solve real world problems. Now, here's your host, David Turetsky.

 

David Turetsky: 0:46

Hello, and welcome to the HR Data Labs podcast. I'm your host, David Turetsky. Like always, we try and find people inside and outside the world of human resources to talk to us about what's going on in the world of HR and beyond. Today we have with us Karen Catlin. Karen, how are you?

 

Karen Catlin: 1:01

I'm doing well. How are you, David?

 

David Turetsky: 1:03

I'm very good. Karen, tell us about your background. Tell us where you are now. And tell us about you.

 

Karen Catlin: 1:10

Yeah. So well after spending 25 years working in tech, I started out as a software engineer, and over time moved into leadership roles. Most recently, I was a vice president of engineering at Adobe. But that took 25 years to get there. And I about 10 years ago shifted my professional focus to how people can be more inclusive at work. As a woman working in tech, I was definitely a part of the marginalized group underrepresented. And I saw firsthand some of the challenges we can face as someone who's not part of the dominant group. I've also, you know, being a woman in tech gives me a certain perspective on things about inclusion. But I also study the experience of anyone who might be underrepresented, whether that's based on their race or ethnicity, their sexual orientation and identity, their age, their abilities, their education status, and so forth. And I, I focus now on how people can be better allies for all members of underrepresented groups. And I'm an author and a public speaker doing that work.

 

David Turetsky: 2:13

That's awesome. And we're going to have notes in the show notes, we're going to have links to Karen's books, so that you can buy them as well. So, Karen, we do this with all of our guests. One fun thing that no one knows about you?

 

Karen Catlin: 2:30

No one knows about me. Okay, one of my best days, like best day ever kind of thing is when I can spend time at home with my label maker, getting things organized. I love getting things organized.

 

David Turetsky: 2:48

So I can invite you over. And you can help me with that. Because I am a mess. I mean, I'm not at the hoarding stage yet. But I definitely need help.

 

Karen Catlin: 2:55

Alright, well, just let me know. And I'll bring my label maker and we'll have a good time.

 

David Turetsky: 2:59

Well, what's hysterical is I probably have four or five of them around. For different types of things, like Dymo, I have like three different Dymo label makers, I have a one that I use for just mailing labels. And yeah, and this is me, they call my father 50 Pant, because if you went into his closet, you'd see 50 of the exact same pair of pants. I'm 50, label maker, so there you go. So Karen, based on your background, I think this is a perfect topic for you. We're going to be talking about what you call the better allies approach. And we're going to get into that in great detail. But like you said in your intro, it's about creating more inclusive workplaces with everyday acts of allyship, so everyone can do their best work and thrive. Question number one. So you're an advocate for more inclusive workplaces, and in particular, the roles that allies play in shifting culture to be more inclusive. And you've been writing about this and speaking about this topic for, as you said, 10 years. What do you think gets in the way of people actually becoming better at being an ally?

 

Karen Catlin: 4:14

Yeah, so in the work I do, so many people will say to me, hey, I am a good person. I'm a decent human being, but I don't understand what's going on. Like I don't see it, I don't see the challenges that people from underrepresented groups are facing. So how am I supposed to do something? So that's the first challenge. But the second one, and this is so frustrating to me and something I work towards is people don't want to be better allies or speak up or do something because they are afraid of getting it wrong. They're afraid they're gonna say something wrong, that something's not gonna land well, they're going to, you know, get feedback. Maybe that whole cancel culture kind of mindset is concerning to them, whatever. People step back from doing this work because they fear making a mistake. But David, here's the thing. If we don't speak up when we see non inclusive behavior, when we don't take actions to be more inclusive in just our everyday lives at work, what we are saying basically sending the message that we are perfectly okay with how things are right now. Perfectly okay with the status quo, we basically are complicit with noninclusion. We are supportive of it.

 

David Turetsky: 5:26

And I think that's another I mean, I think, obviously, that's that, you know, that's what scares those people, right? That doing something or not doing something has a cost. And to them, they kind of balance it on the not doing something because they think the cost of that is better. And I agree with you. I think it also comes with its its obvious downside.

 

Karen Catlin: 5:50

Yes, yeah. So here's one thing I'm doing to help people get over that, that hurdle, step out of their comfort zone a little bit more than maybe they would be otherwise is, I really believe being a better ally is a journey. It's kind of a journey with no end because we constantly are learning and practicing this and doing more. But a key part of this is getting comfortable with making mistakes. Learning how to apologize and own it when we do make a mistake, and not with these ifs or buts like. Well, I'm sorry, if I offended anyone, no, you offended someone if you're getting that feedback, or wasn't my intention to do that. But that's what the impact was so you got to own it. So I think we got to get comfortable with making mistakes with apologizing with sincerity with pledging to do better. And one thing and I'll admit, I make mistakes in this work. Even though I have been writing and speaking about it for 10 years, I still make mistakes myself. And when I make a mistake, I love this mindset and literally have to remind myself of it of be curious, not furious. Don't get mad and defensive and furious, because someone's just pointed out a mistake you've made. Instead get curious, ask some questions, do some some online searching to better understand this topic, whatever it might be. Be curious, not furious. It's a great mindset allows me to learn and reflect and pledge to do better.

 

David Turetsky: 7:19

But I think it's that fear that you're talking about that people have of getting called out or canceled or whatever it is that they they're so afraid of getting it wrong, but they're so afraid of, of having to apologize because listen, as a culture, we suck at apologizing, we just. I remember there's an episode of Looney Tunes where Bugs Bunny says to Daffy Duck, you have to apologize for what you did. And Daffy can't say the words. And that's literally it is literally a commentary on the on the problem that we have as a as a culture. We just can't. What's wrong with us that we can't say I'm sorry? And actually mean it? Like you said, we apologize the wrong way we say I'm sorry if you took it that way? Or I'm sorry, if I made you feel that way? No, no, you did make them feel that way. So just say I'm sorry, I made a mistake. Why do we have such a problem with that?

 

Karen Catlin: 8:15

I don't know. I don't know. But one thing that I think is helpful is when we see other people getting more comfortable with making mistakes. I think it's so important for leaders to own up when they've made a mistake, own it with sincerity, apologize with sincerity and all of that. And one thing I do, which I think helps, I get a lot of feedback that people love it when I make mistakes, because I own it myself. I have a weekly newsletter and whenever I make a mistake, when I'm giving talks to people working with clients, writing my newsletter, believe me, people tell me when I make a mistake, whenever I do make a mistake, I address it in the next week. So then I can share. Here's what I did. Here's what I learned. Do you want to hear a recent example of a mistake I made?

 

David Turetsky: 9:01

Unless it's too personal?

 

Karen Catlin: 9:03

No, hey, I've already shared it with you know, 36,000 people on my newsletter. So what's a few more?

 

David Turetsky: 9:08

They're your best friends though. So they, yeah, so please, let's hear it!

 

Karen Catlin: 9:12

Exactly. Alright. So earlier this fall, I was having a small dinner party had a friend of mine and her husband over for dinner. And they offered to bring dessert, which was great, important part of the story. So hold on to that. We were having dinner, a great dinner, and they were both asking me about my work on better allies and looking for some examples. And one of the examples I gave was just how women especially women of color, tend to be asked to do more kind of office housework it's called, tasks that someone needs to do, but it's not part of anyone's job. So classic thing is like ordering cake for the monthly birthday celebration or taking the minutes at a meeting if no one's job is to take the minutes or whatever. And I joke like it's, you know, as we think about like any kind of food that's being served at a, you know, at lunch and corporate lunch or something's like, it's not like the men can't serve the pizza or clean up, like I just made some joke about that. Well, later on when it was time for dessert, I went in, got their dessert out of the fridge, put it on a platter brought the serving things out. And I put it in front of my friend, the woman, not her husband, and I said you wouldn't mind would you? And they both kind of looked at me. And it took me maybe a minute, and I were like, Oh, my gosh, I can't believe what I just did, this advocate for more inclusion, I expected the woman in the couple to cut the cake and serve it. So that's a mistake. I own it. I share it. And I think it's a good crossover, actually, between how allyship is important at work, but also at home and they reinforce each other.

 

David Turetsky: 10:50

Do you think that this comes back to something in our culture about unconscious bias and how we're just made to feel like the woman should be the food provider or the server? I mean, I'm the person who cooks at home. Of course, I'm a single dad, but I'm the person who cooks at home, I'm the person that takes care of this. And I expect that same thing when I go out or I go to my mom's or whatever, that I do that stuff for my kids. Is, is this just something that we have built iinto us about our culture?

 

Karen Catlin: 11:20

Yeah, it is. It's it is unconscious bias. And we all have unconscious bias. And we need to be more aware of when you know when we do have biased behaviors. And when they impact people, how they impact people, you know, this notion of office housework, these non promotable tasks that people take on, especially women, women of color. Of course, the impact of that is, women get stuck in servitude roles, like serving other people there, even though they might be with their peers in that meeting, all of a sudden, they are in service to everyone else, and they're seen less than. And often they can get stuck with busy work. So instead of maybe participating in that meeting, as a first rate attendee, they're a step behind the conversation, because they're taking the minutes for example. So we do need to disrupt, well recognize our unconscious bias, and then take action to disrupt it.

 

David Turetsky: 12:12

I wish that that was something that we could teach in school. Unfortunately, it's not something that especially with how things are from a political environment, it seems like we would be classified as being too woke by saying things like this, which is disturbing in many different ways.

 

Karen Catlin: 12:30

By what by the way, I take that as a compliment. I'm, I'm woke. Woke to me means I am aware of all of these issues that I'm paying attention and I am working to make a more equitable situation. So

 

David Turetsky: 12:43

I agree with you and I'd love to use mench in the same tenor is I use the word woke. If you're being woke, then you're doing things that are good, that are meaningful, that make people feel happy. So yeah, I'm with you on that.

 

Announcer: 12:57

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David Turetsky: 13:08

So the second question, let's make sure that we can provide some examples, some tangible actions that can help them become better allies in workplaces. So do you have any examples that our audience might be able to resonate? Or might resonate with our audience?

 

Karen Catlin: 13:26

Yeah, definitely. So in my books, I have this framework, the seven roles allies can play. Seven roles are things like you can be a sponsor, you can be a champion, you can be an advocate, an amplifier, a scholar who studies it, a confidant where people tell you about things, and an upstander, seven different ways that you can show up as an ally. And this framework is really powerful, I get so much feedback that this is super helpful, because it explains that there's no one definition of what it means to be an ally. And some of these might be more in your comfort zone. So you can double down on those, that's fine. Some of them might be stepping outside your comfort zone a little bit because of whatever, the way you're wired, your personality, your skills. And why not try some of these things as well.

 

David Turetsky: 14:13

Yeah. What did it cost him to do it? You know, So anyway, there is this framework. Within the framework, and I'll share just three examples of the actual things you can do. One is like as a sponsor, a sponsor talks about people sometimes in the rooms they're in, sometimes in the rooms that they are not in, they sing their praises, right? So why not look for every opportunity you can to endorse your co workers who are from these underrepresented groups, endorse them in public. One of my favorite ally stories is when what from a reputation perspective, the actual act of I was on the receiving end of this kind of act of sponsorship. My boss at the time, I was in a meeting with him. I just joined the company. And it was in like a senior engineering leadership meeting. I think it was about 40 men and I think I might have been the only woman in the room and I heard my boss say Well, what I learned from Karen Catlin about this topic is the following. And he went on to summarize something I had shared with him probably on a one on one the previous week. But the learning from someone is such an incredible thing to admit. It's wonderful. fact that he had said he learned something from me, made me feel great. But it also helped me build credibility with all my new peers, these guys that I was going to have to start working with on cross team initiatives and so forth. So that simple act of explaining how you know, something you learned from someone or looking for other ways to endorse someone's experience, expertise, impact in public can go a long way. It's something so simple, right? I don't think my boss was thinking about it, but he just did it. Yeah. And, David, let's face it, anyone in a leadership role should be embracing opportunities to show some vulnerability. And this is such an easy thing to say, like I learned from somebody else. Boost them, show that vulnerability, build your own leadership reputation as a result. Yeah, yeah. What I think I found now in my leadership role, and in others I've had, is it's not about me, it's about my team. If I didn't have a team, I wouldn't exist, I wouldn't be needed, actually. And I can't get anything done without that team. And so when, when someone asks about how things get done, I talk about the people who work for me, I talk about how they do what they do, and how I just enable them. Because all I'm doing, all my job is, is to clear paths for them to get things done. Because as you say, you know, I learn from them. I have to, because I'm not an expert in everything! I like to think I am but I'm not. And I love what you were talking about before about being curious, not furious. When I don't know something. I actually also will reference people, other people, not to the extent where I want credit for it. I don't, I want them to get the credit for it. So especially when we're talking about succession, or we're talking about projects that come up, I want them to get that work. And hopefully it helps.

 

Karen Catlin: 17:14

Yeah. Fantastic. I love everything. You're you're being a better ally, I can just tell how you show up every day.

 

David Turetsky: 17:20

Trying! Learning, right?

 

Karen Catlin: 17:22

I'm with you. I'm trying too. I'm trying too. Should I share another example with you?

 

David Turetsky: 17:29

I'd love, I'd love a couple more examples. As you said, you're gonna give us at least three.

 

Karen Catlin: 17:32

Okay, okay, three. Okay, so I've got one done. So another one is as the amplifier, another role in the seven roles that allies can play. Amplifiers look to really like amplify people's contributions, boost them in that way. And again, getting back to meetings. There are unfortunately, many examples of non inclusive behavior that can happen in meetings, interruptions can happen. People talk over others, it's hard for people to get a word in edgewise. We've all been in those meetings. Or people might say a great idea and it doesn't really go anywhere. But then someone else says the same thing in the same meeting, and they get all the credit. So as a better ally, we can look out for these non inclusive behaviors and look to amplify the voices in these meetings. Amplify in terms of, hey, I think I think Deepa, is trying to get a word in, let's hear from Deepa now. We can speak up, or we can if we hear someone repeating an idea that was previously raised, we can say, Hey, I see you agree with what Sue raised earlier in the meeting. You know, we can look for making sure people get the credit. Or here's maybe the simplest thing is we can upvote people's ideas in online discussion forums, plus one to what that person said, or, you know, literally upvote if that technology is there, those things can go a long way to making people's voices heard, as well as them feeling included and that their voice matters. So that's something an amplifier can do.

 

David Turetsky: 19:04

Do you think that the amplifier also then takes that person who had that idea and assigns at least partial ownership or should assign partial ownership to that person who did speak up? Because it may be their idea? And maybe what they wanted to do is to say, I want a piece of the solution there and how do I get there? And they don't feel that they had the voice to do that. Would the amplifier be the person that that sponsors them to actually get that role? That assignment that, that push?

 

Karen Catlin: 19:35

Yeah, why not? I think it depends on the context and who the people are and what position you might have in assigning that work or recommending it. But absolutely! Look, look to open that door. Absolutely.

 

David Turetsky: 19:48

I so often hear voices that get lost because they don't feel like they have that level or they don't feel like they have the job to be able to say, Hey, can I contribute in some way to those thoughts because, you know.

 

Karen Catlin: 20:02

Right. Or they feel like if someone wants me to contribute more, they'll ask me

 

David Turetsky: 20:07

They'll ask me. That doesn't happen. How about that last role that you wanted to talk about?

 

Karen Catlin: 20:12

Okay, I am going to talk about the upstander. The upstander is someone who actually sees offensive behavior, non inclusive behavior, whatever, and they really like speak up to do something about it. It's often the hardest roll for people to do because this can be really the uncomfortable level. Like if we see something if someone's saying a racist, making a racist comment, or homophobic joke or something, we might just be like, like, whatever like and not get involved, not call it out. But it's really important to stand up for the people who are being offended. Even if they're not in earshot. We can say something like, Hey, I don't get that joke. Can you explain it to me? Which often makes someone like, What do you mean? Like, you don't get it, like, it forces them to confront the bias, or the racism or whatever it might be. And they kind of just drop it. So just getting someone to explain their joke is a great way to be an upstander. Or, and here's another one of my favorite approaches that I apply in a lot of different settings is, seek common ground and educate. Draw someone in, call them into the conversation by sharing something you've learned yourself about the thing you've just witnessed. An example is, imagine you just heard a coworker call a black woman or tell a black woman, hey, you were so articulate in the meeting just now.

 

David Turetsky: 21:36

Yeah.

 

Karen Catlin: 21:37

Here's what I mean by seek common ground and educate, you can have a conversation with that person in private. Call them, you know, pull him aside or something and say, Hey, I heard you say that to our colleague. I used to think that was a compliment, I'm seeking common ground. I used to think that was a compliment. But I have since learned that many black people do not think it's a compliment when you call them articulate because it's like, what are you comparing them to? Why wouldn't you think that they're well spoken, are able to speak, speak up and explain something. So better, it could be to focus on the impact of their presentation, or some other quality, like you're the best at simplifying a really complex problem or gaining consensus in a in a tough meeting. You know, something else that's more business impact, than just like, Oh, you're so articulate. So anyway, an upstander speaks up and does some of these things.

 

David Turetsky: 22:28

Karen, would you also say that it may be good feedback to say to somebody, you know, in those circumstances, it may be better not to say anything. If you're gonna, if you're not sure that what you're saying is appropriate. Don't say it, or say you did a good. to your point, there are other ways of saying it. But but is is the alternative not to say anything? Not not the upstander, I'm talking about the person who tried to give a compliment that really wasn't the compliment.

 

Karen Catlin: 22:54

Yeah. I always think it's a safe place to give people feedback or compliment them on the business impact. When you focus on the business impact, that allows

 

David Turetsky: 23:00

Okay. you to really focus on what's going to matter. Is it okay to compliment someone on what they're wearing? Well, that's like, probably stay away from that. But if certain, in a certain context, if that is going to help with some business objective, because, hey, thank you for wearing the brand, you know, the branded logo material, that's gonna be good, because there's some business impact of you're reinforcing our brand by doing that. But telling someone Hey, you look fantastic today or something like it's, you'd like to stay clear of that. So I don't want to say don't say anything, but compliment or give people feedback based on their business impact. Excellent example. Thank you. Hey, are you listening to this and thinking to yourself, Man, I wish I could talk to David about this? Well, you're in luck. We have a special offer for listeners of the HR Data Labs podcast, a free half hour call with me about any of the topics we cover on the podcast, or whatever is on your mind. Go to Salary.com/HRDLconsulting, to schedule your FREE 30 minute call today. So the third question, and this is gonna be a little long, so bear with me. I can see how those actions could make a difference to someone who's marginalized or underrepresented at work. Yet, what about the larger systemic issues? Is there a role for an ally there?

 

Karen Catlin: 24:28

Yeah. Okay, another thing I explore in my book is what I call knights versus allies. Knights being you know, riding in on my White Stallion to save the damsel in distress. I'm doing something for one person. And many actions of allies can be borderline there. I'm going to save someone from their eventual distress. I'm going to ride in on my horse and take and take care of everything. And I don't want to dissuade people from taking action to help one person. However, leave the horse behind, leave the Savior mentality behind, you're doing it because it's the right thing to do. But you can take action for one person. But then ask yourself, if there is something you can do to have a larger impact to have that more systemic impact that really would be ideal for your organization. What do I mean by that? Imagine you're on a hiring committee, and you're in a debrief meeting talking about a candidate with a visible disability. And someone says, you know, I just can't put my finger on it, but I just don't think they'd fit in here. Now, of course, probably there, there might be some bias at play here. And if you think this candidate is the right person, and could do the job, you as an as a knight kind of mentality a little bit may be like, hey, if we, I really think this person is great, if we hire them, I will personally mentor them so that they're successful. Okay, that's a great thing to do, I don't want to dissuade that. But at the same time, a more systemic approach may be, hey, let's step back, and just define what we're looking for in this role. Let's make sure we have a rubric or some standardized objectives that we are trying to fill that we can talk about, because this just putting, can't put your finger on why they wouldn't be able to do the job or they wouldn't fit in, doesn't sound fair. So let's talk about what we're really looking for, and then talk about this candidate. And then make sure that's a good best practice for all hiring that your organization does. Right. So look for those systemic changes, you can also make.

 

David Turetsky: 26:33

I think it's always a good idea to have a rubric, which sets up standards for how you're judging candidate to candidate anyway, so that you don't have those moments of unconscious bias, which might say, Yeah, I think she could do the job. But you know, I worry about her balancing her work and her personal life because she's got kids. No, that's not okay. It's not okay to even say. So.

 

Karen Catlin: 26:58

Right. I mean, it happens.

 

David Turetsky: 26:59

Oh, yeah, it really does. And that's, it's such a shame. And you could also even use that same attitude toward working overtime. Yeah, we should probably ask Bob to do it. Because Barbara has got kids. Well, Bob's got kids, too. And maybe Bob's the guy who has to stay home because his wife works at night. Maybe, you don't know! So stop thinking like that right out of the box.

 

Karen Catlin: 27:22

Right.

 

David Turetsky: 27:25

But but so to your point, though, what you're suggesting is that a knight is someone who makes the recommendation based on the one and you're saying, in order to be able to satisfy the need across the organization, it's better to do something that would be more impactful beyond the one, right?

 

Karen Catlin: 27:46

Right. Yeah, I'll give one more example, quick one, which I've just recently explored in my newsletter, but bereavement leave. Many organizations have, oh, five days you can take off or something for immediate family members who pass away. And that is definitely rooted in I'll call it a traditional white Christian kind of culture, where that's going to be plenty of time to take care of what needs to happen. There are many people, different cultures who that is not what, you know, the grieving process is longer. Maybe that has to take place in another country, because that's where their family is. Maybe their definition of immediate family is much more exhaustive than just parents and children and siblings, right? Aunts, uncles, and so forth. So I'm hearing about and I think it was Johnson and Johnson just recently changed their bereavement policy leave to be 30 days to accommodate all the different cultural needs out of bereavement and grieving, maybe even 30 days isn't enough for many people. But my point is, when we think about being an ally, versus a knight, a knight, if they're in a management position, may know about one person on their team who has to travel to, let's say, India, for their uncle's funeral, and will be gone a month. And they might say, it's fine. We just won't tell anyone. Okay, that's great. But why not look at the policy overall for your organization and make that recommendation that it should be more generous so that everyone at the company can do that, and not relying on just the generosity of one manager to do that.

 

David Turetsky: 29:25

And I think if you're not in a leadership role in your organization, there are still lessons where if you hear this and you say, Well, what can I do? You can still go and talk to them, or suggest they listen to the podcast, which would be really good. Or maybe read Karen's books, but but also, as you grow in your career, emulate the things that you hear and emulate, you know, the what you'd want to have as an ally, right? To be able to get the impact that you're creating in your company and in your culture, to be what you're hoping it is right?

 

Karen Catlin: 30:01

Yeah. Amen.

 

David Turetsky: 30:05

Well, I worry because a lot of people say, I'm not at that level, that I can really impact it. I don't think that's true!

 

Karen Catlin: 30:11

I agree. And one of the things I wrote in my newsletter when I was describing bereavement leave and what I just learned about Johnson and Johnson is, everybody in the company can take a look at the policies and like, understand what is your bereavement leave for your company, because you might not know, you might not have had to use it. And if it's not 30 days, send somebody in HR that you know, this information, send them this article about what Johnson and Johnson just did, and advocate for taking a second look at that policy. Anyone can do that.

 

David Turetsky: 30:44

And just don't give up. I mean, you could send that article, you can follow it up with an email, but but don't give up and not that you not that I'm saying you should take it all the way to the C suite. Or if you can you, you should, that'd be great, but to your point, at least to advocate for yourself and for others that are in that situation.

 

Karen Catlin: 31:03

Exactly.

 

David Turetsky: 31:12

Wonderful, Karen, it's been a pleasure talking to and I hope that people have taken something away to become better allies, because we all have situations that we wish we had someone who could stand up for us and stand up for others. Right?

 

Karen Catlin: 31:30

Exactly.

 

David Turetsky: 31:32

Thank you so much for being on the show.

 

Karen Catlin: 31:33

It was a pleasure. Thank you very much, David.

 

David Turetsky: 31:36

Thank you. And thank you all for listening. Take care and stay safe.

 

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