Perry Doody – How HR Teams Can Pivot From Being Tactical to Being Strategic

Connect with Perry Doody:

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Connect with Dwight:

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• dwight.brown@salary.com

Connect with David:

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• david.turetsky@salary.com

Podcast Manager, Karissa Harris:

• HRDataLabs@salary.com

 

Production by Affogato Media

Resources:

• Compensation Consulting
• Above the Ring Consulting
• HR Data Labs Season 7 Episode 3
• HR Data Labs Season 7 Episode 1

• “People are [a company’s] capital—they are an asset, and I don’t think every company looks at it that way. The strategic ones do.”
• “Becoming more strategic involves change, and a lot of us are resistant to change, . . . but the way you get over this is by looking to competitors, other industries, and even your personal life.”

Announcer  00:02

Here's an experiment for you. Take passionate experts in human resource technology, invite cross industry experts from inside and outside HR. Mix in what's happening in people analytics today. Give them the technology to connect, hit record for their discussions into a beaker. Mix thoroughly. And voila, you get the HR Data Labs podcast, where we explore the impact of data and analytics to your business. We may get passionate, and even irreverent, that count on each episode challenging and enhancing your understanding of the way people data can be used to solve real world problems. Now, here's your host, David Turetsky.

 

David Turetsky  00:46

Hello, and welcome to the HR Data Labs podcast. I'm your host, David Turetsky. And like always, we try and find innovative brilliant people from inside and outside and around the world of human resources to talk to us about what's going on today. Today, we have with us my new friend Perry Doody. Perry, how are you?

 

Perry Doody  01:04

I'm good, David, and thank you for the kind words, I hope we're recording this.

 

David Turetsky  01:08

Oh, no, it's totally being recorded. And if you want, I can actually have our audio engineer, make sure that they emphasize the brilliant, yeah,

 

Perry Doody  01:14

let's put captions on there.

 

David Turetsky  01:15

And we will. So Perry, tell me a little bit about your background. Tell me a little bit about what you're doing now. Don't go on for a couple minutes.

 

Perry Doody  01:23

Sure. very timely, actually. Because I just actually started a new role went back to consulting. But that's where I started actually, many, many years ago. And I was just describing my canvas for creativity was Microsoft Access. That's where I learned. I learned the application, love solving problems. So I found myself going into financial services, and eventually working on compensation plans. So you know, if I think of the one area that I've had the most interaction with human resources, and you know, from there, I was an employee for a while. But eventually I went back to school did my MBA, I knew it's interesting. One of the goals I had was to start my own business, like, not just a consulting business, but a real business. Right. And when I went back and did my MBA anyway.... Stop, stop, stop. Are you seeing the consulting businesses aren't real businesses. So anyhow, I met my business partner, while doing my MBA. And, you know, I gotta tell you, when I think of the reasons I went back, and the value I got was really the people I met. Sure, in fact, I tell a lot of people this I found what the NBA was really about was unteaching you some of the bad habits that kind of accrue over the years. And so anyhow, we we formed contract, we grew that from the two of us, which is kind of nuts, when I think about it, to about 72 people, just a wonderful experience, got to know more human resource people. And then this past June, we sold our company and and I was part of the transition. But the intent all along was for me to kind of take some time off. I don't know about you, David. But this was the first time in my case, I I almost hate to say this, but 30 year career, where I actually had an opportunity to take a few months off.

 

David Turetsky  03:22

I don't know what what is this phrase you're using time off? What does that mean? Exactly.

 

Perry Doody  03:27

But you know, I can't think of a time like prior to that, where you'd go to bed thinking about something. And right. And that's, that's fantastic, right, but what a feeling when you don't actually have that for a while, and also gave me an opportunity of what this next chapter in my life looks like. And I definitely wanted to do something with it, still kind of leverage my skills. But while I was doing a lot in this, I kind of went on this fitness journey of self discovery, if you will. And when we started contract, my partner and I both started to do CrossFit. And that's something I think a lot of people don't know. But in some ways, I felt it was an experience that I built up some resiliency, some discipline, it's incredible what you can learn from people and other industries. And so I decided, over the last few months, I'm gonna go back to consulting, but I'm going to bring together frameworks that I learned in business and in fitness, and really apply it to strategy. And I gotta tell you, like, I've learned things from people half my age with no business degree that can be applied in business. And it's just like common sense. But it works. And I I lived it firsthand. And so that's, that's my focus today.

 

David Turetsky  04:43

That's great. So Perry, what's one fun thing that no one knows about you?

 

Perry Doody  04:49

Jeez, are you just telling somebody my life's become pretty poor? You know, we were talking earlier. I'm a big music. I love music. You probably could see the record player. I've gone back to vinyl But the one thing I did touch on is CrossFit. CrossFit has just been a huge part of my life, I would go to class every morning 6am got to know some great people. And it changed me. And it was just something I got, you know, we would do a lot of fun things in the gym. If I showed you our lunch room, we had gymnastic rings hanging from the ceiling of pegboard. So it was just a lot of fun being able to kind of mix those two things together. But I will say this, and because I've experienced it firsthand, CrossFit people don't shut up about doing CrossFit. So let's let's, let's put a box around that for now. Yeah,

 

David Turetsky  05:37

I don't. I don't think I can tell that Perry. But yeah, okay. Yeah. So Perry, our topic for today is the role of human resources and how it should be more strategic than operational. Obviously, there's operational things we have to do. But when you look at great companies and their HR departments, and leaders, some of them being visionary, is there nothing more important than people in the company, and the people are the company's capital? So Perry, our first question is, you've worked in a lot of HR departments, you've talked about it during your intro, what differentiates a great HR department from a good HR department?

 

Perry Doody  06:23

Fantastic question. And I'll predicate the answer by saying, If I could go back and do everything over, I would do human resources. It's, to me, it's the core of of any business, it's like you mentioned earlier, people are your capital, they are an asset. And I don't think every company looks at it that way. Certainly, the strategic ones do that. But in a lot of cases, it's really about I think it starts with the CEO and recognizing that HR is a critical component to the overall business. So does, you know the Chief Human Resource Officer, have that influence with the executive team. Secondly, and I actually wrote about this last week, I hate the term back office admin, I just hate those expressions for any groups, you have to start looking at areas like HR as critical to the overall mission of that business. And what that means is that you need to free up time to be strategic. It's interesting, I talked about the fitness journey, there's a rule out there that when you're training, 80% of the time should be easy runs 20% should be really hard. Right? I think if you asked most people out there, they'd probably tell you the reverse, right. And that makes it difficult to be strategic, because you're always caught in the crisis of the day, you're being extremely tactical, but it prevents you from really being strategic and looking at what can we do? How can we actually put in game changing policies? How do we retain talent.

 

David Turetsky  07:55

So have you seen anything as you're doing all this, to be able to put the tactical to the side? Because the tactical is going to scream at you? It's kind of like, you know, the chicks in the nest, they're going to be screaming for food? How do you work on the tactical or put it aside so that you can focus on the strategic?

 

Perry Doody  08:13

Well, why not? You have to get smarter about your tactical I, you know, I find that, and I'm guilty of this, too, we always want to add, we never want to take away. And so some of that stepping back saying, Okay, what are all the things that we're doing, and go out and talk to your internal clients is everything that you're doing adding value, because there might be critical components, I'm big on this, people have to really focus on doing less and doing that less really well than doing a whole bunch of things and being mediocre at it. And that's hard. Because it does require you to really have some good insights on everything that you're doing. This is an area by the way that I think AI is going to help with if you choose to embrace it, right. But you have the option to just have that willingness to try new things. I also think it's it's about the team makeup of HR, do you actually have the right people who can be strategic, who can also be efficient and have influence? If there's one trait, if you will, that I I have kind of seen firsthand is it does come down to the leader, how bold is it that that she or he wants to be and really drive the policies of HR. So it starts from a leadership perspective, and then really empowering people to be more strategic to be part of business meetings. I'm running up a post right now about you know, an idea for this year. Go to the gemba go to the workplace, talk to your internal customers understand what they're doing. When you get there. That's a huge enabler, to being strategic because in addition to understanding what your areas do, you build relationships they see you as being a solution provider, not part of admin. And I've seen that firsthand.

 

David Turetsky  10:08

So one of the things I take away from what you're saying is, sometimes we have to challenge the why do we do things? So be a good consultant to your clients and ask, why do you need that? Or what are you doing with that? Can I help you redesign what you're asking for, in order to make it a more efficient request that I can fulfill on? Or is it something using self service that you actually have access to already, but you just don't know that you have access to it? So you come to me for for help. So do I get that right? Is it

 

Perry Doody  10:37

100%? I worked in healthcare for eight years in my career, and I actually was responsible for quality, got to know some extremely passionate people who had quality improvement frameworks. And it's interesting what you said about why one of the exercises was asked why five or six times used to drive me crazy. I like when I first did it on their lorry, why are you asking me why? It works! Because you get to the root cause you start to ask, well, it's not about producing reports, it's about actually getting the right information to the right person. And that can come in a variety of ways. And but you kind of have to go through that process. I'm a big, I'm a big proponent of getting people in a room and having conversations, bring in your internal customers ask them what they need. So yes, a big part of this is process redesign.

 

David Turetsky  11:31

Well, sometimes when I asked my customer what they need, a lot of times I hear well, this is how we do it. This is how we've always done it. And it's the kind of requests I've put in the past. And when I asked the question, why they said, Well, my predecessor did it. And this is the thing that you know, our boss wants to see, and then I always kind of go to Okay, well, well, let's kind of unpack it a little bit to your point, let's unpack the request that they have, and see if there's a reason why they're asking for it. And then see if there's a way in which we can get rid of that request. So that maybe we are doing something more proactive instead of reactive and giving them something after something's happening. Let's do it before. And that means that it puts less stress on you. And it also gives them what they need for the timing that they require it not waiting around for us to get it to them. I've had that I've had that happen a lot.

 

Perry Doody  12:17

And it's very easy for a process to take over the outcome. No, yeah, where you just focus on the process, month end, right, month end, we got this package, we're putting it together. Okay, so why are we putting this package together? Right. And it's sometimes it's hard to kind of step back, because it does require a leader to maybe push back as well and say, okay, you know, we're doing all these things, we need to free up some time. But it starts with dialog, it starts with a conversation.

 

Announcer  12:48

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David Turetsky  12:59

What I think that's the reason why we're gonna get to the next question now, which is, do you think because HR is so busy with all those busy work, it's so challenging for HR to be more strategic, you know, is it this legacy thing, set of things that are kind of hanging around our neck that are dragging us down?

 

Perry Doody  13:16

Legacy is a big part of it, I It's interesting as I'm I just to give you a bit of my own personal experience, building something from scratch, versus dealing with the all the legacy issues is much easier, you can actually take advantage of new technology, new ways of doing things. And, you know, legacy is real. It's, it's incredible, just on the technical side, how many macros and legacy systems are out there that nobody knows how they were built, and it can get intimidating, where you somebody tells you, you have to go redesign this, but use it as an opportunity, put a red circle around it and say, we're not just going to figure this out and keep it, let's, let's figure out how we can redesign it. And I think there are a lot of examples like that. And I'm not trying to minimize the tactical, because the tactical is real, in terms of being able to produce it. But you have to start and I you know, there's a tool that is about getting organized at the beginning of the year, documenting all your processes, everything that you do. And it's not until you have that visibility where you can start pulling things away, or consolidating things and, you know, is it boring consulting work? Yeah, maybe it's boring, but but it's, it adds a lot of value and leads you to a place where you can start to be more strategic and start to strip away things. And, you know...

 

David Turetsky  14:42

I am a CHRO, I want that tool. I want to have access to that tool because, you know, walking in and then trying to help the organization that have done yeoman's work to get things to happen, you know, and then basically having to lift a lot of things on their shoulders, whether it's the CFO or the The VP of employee engagement, sorry, employee experience, you know, they do so much amazing work. But to your point, there's a better way of doing it, the better way is to sit back and go, the other things do we need to do those now, or are those secondary to the really important things that we have to take care of?

 

Perry Doody  15:17

I find too, so, you know, in my experience, as well is it's interesting HRs, you know, they promote, and rightfully so teams diversity of teams talent, but they also need to be diverse in terms of the people that they bring in, it shouldn't just be pure HR people, bring in your quality improvement analysts bring in different types of people, subcon people from the business. And that's where you can start to do some of these things. And I that's the other thing I've just assumed, in my travels, I've seen a lot of different companies, I've seen a lot of different groups who do things differently, learn from that, and mix it up a bit. But I, you know, one of the reasons I wanted to kind of go down this path, as well as I did a lot of rapid improvement events. So do things over two or three days bring people together, it's in those environments where people start to form and have really honest discussions, that three days later, you can have a lot done and be on your way. But it's it's really about the team, and and really getting the information from those team members to start on this journey. At the end of the day, and I'm not gonna, again, I'm probably knocking myself here, but a consultant only do so much you have to work this into your DNA of your team or organization. It's not a project, it should be an underlying core skill.

 

David Turetsky  16:43

Hey, are you listening to this and thinking to yourself, Man, I wish I could talk to David about this? Well, you're in luck, we have a special offer for listeners of the HR Data Labs podcast, a free half hour call with me about any of the topics we cover on the podcast, or whatever is on your mind. Go to Salary.com forward slash H R DL consulting, to schedule your FREE 30 minute call today. And I think that gets me to the last question, which is, let's talk a little bit about that skill. What enables a company to pivot from being tactical, to being more strategic? And to kind of second to double down on that? Is there a specific trait in the DNA of a strategic leader? That's different than one who's more tactical? And then, you know, how do they get the CEO involved in, you know, what can you give us practical examples that HR can kind of take away and be able to say, you know, to answer that multipart question,

 

Perry Doody  17:44

So great question, because a lot of some of this involves change, doing things differently. And a lot of us, including myself, I times are resistant to change, you also don't know what you don't know. But the way you get over this is take a look around you. And not only to like your competitors, but other industries, and look at what's going on in your personal life. That's where I got a lot of my insight is I tried different things, you know, and what's also I find very interesting today is people are more than willing to kind of share their insights with you, especially when they've been successful. We were talking before we started this about HR tech, and the conference, go to conferences, like go and learn from others and see what they're doing. And for lack of a better term copy it, that's when I look at my own life is is I tried to copy people's best practices, maybe put my own contribution in it as well, right. But there's nothing I've done that is worthwhile, where I haven't done with somebody else or learned from somebody. I had plenty of scars. I tried things that hadn't worked out. But that's that's what you have to do. But I would say it a lot. A lot of the companies we worked with are in big cities. And if you actually look around yourself, I remember when I was at Reworked, I would walk the floors. I was curious to know what other companies were. Were there and I I'd have conversations over coffee and I'm just naturally a curious person. Be a little curious.

 

David Turetsky  19:13

Well, yeah, we've all been part of associations, whether it's Worldatwork, or SHRM or the Wall Street Comp and Benefits Association, which is one I was a part of when I was at Morgan Stanley, I think I was there at Bankers Trust as well, but but it gave us opportunity to cross pollinate and be able to get the ideas from what other people are doing because frankly, we're all doing the same exact stuff. Not that we had to, you know, basically collaborate. We weren't collaborating, we weren't doing anything wrong. What we were doing is just learning from each other to your point Perry. So I think it's a great idea. And there are lots of forums that exist, you know, go to your HCM forums, or go to a Worldatwork or SHRM, or even on LinkedIn, there's some really great forums on LinkedIn about asking questions about things to get real answers from you're talking about?

 

Perry Doody  20:00

And listen, I think you know this, David, there's a lot of garbage out there on social media and different platforms.

 

David Turetsky  20:08

Are you saying everything on the internet is not true? Is that what you're saying? Can't believe you.

 

Perry Doody  20:12

There's amazing, there's incredible things out there that people offer up for free. And yes, you have to research but it's incredible today. And take advantage of that just, you know, go into it with open eyes, but But it's incredible. And it's what I found to it's amazing, especially in, you know, as a result of COVID some of the relationships and connections I made during COVID, because I couldn't go into the office, and people wanting to learn more. And yeah, it's, it's quite empowering. You know, I have a basic thesis I you probably land on this, people are generally pretty good, especially when you're dealing with them one on one. And I just found that people want to be helpful. And but it also requires a leader or somebody to go seek that help. Or I tell my kids this, there's nothing wrong with asking for help.

 

David Turetsky  21:03

That's absolutely true. We think of ourselves as being invincible and that we know everything. I for one do not know everything. In fact, I think I can boil my entire career down to a broken clock is right twice a day.

 

Perry Doody  21:17

So true, so true. But no, I but you know what? I think it, it takes some time for us. And it kind of goes back to my comment about the NBA just unteach yourself some of the things that you kind of develop over the course of your career.

 

David Turetsky  21:32

So you go back to you, we talked about how the leaders fall in here? Or how they play a role. Is there a role for your CEO in this? Absolutely.

 

Perry Doody  21:40

Like it early on in my career, not recently, but early on in my career, I saw cases where, you know, the role of HR was diminished. You don't have to go back too far, where CEO, and CFO that's where all the decisions were made. I think that has changed a lot. You know, I would still challenge to I haven't seen a lot of Chief Human Resource Officers become CEO. I'd like to see more of that I when I when I kind of think of the importance of people, I think that's a shift that's going to happen. But I think the smart, the real, leading edge companies out there value, what HR is doing, and I used to see how often are you looking at your comp plans? Are you changing them up? Are you tweaking them? What are you doing with data? You know, it's when you have high turnover? That's probably a huge, that is a big, big challenge. If you could minimize that key people, attract people, that war is not going away. I know people are talking recession and what have you, the demographics to me, will show that that battle or war will continue. So don't don't think there's something coming, that's going to save it. I think a lot of really good things came out of COVID in terms of how people looked at leaders looked at people, and you can get into a whole debate about hybrid, what have you in terms of of working on that's, that's a small part of it. There's a whole many issues. And I think companies have taken opportunity. I just you know, before I came on here is on LinkedIn, and people were posting pictures of the gift basket that they got delivered to their home or the holidays, right? Those things like little things like that make a huge difference.

 

David Turetsky  23:23

Yes. But going back one step a little bit. I think that what we have failed to do, especially in social media, and maybe this is more widespread. I think we failed to protect people from bad ideas. And so there's a lot of bad ideas out there. Like a lot of companies are deciding to bring people back from hybrid to come back to work. And they're doing it because they see other companies doing it. And they still haven't taken care of some of the underlying issues that made hybrid work more attractive to employees. And there's a fundamental problem with that. That hasn't really been addressed yet. And that's a fundamental problem, I think of most western civilizations, which is being able to take care of your kids as part of your life, and not having to make them an excuse for why you aren't working. You know, that part is bullcrap, you know, the, I like to use the equation that 24 minus L equals W is not the right equation, like we're not trying to solve for for leisure work by working more or working less, we should be living more. And then that determines how much we work. And I think that's one of the fundamental issues that we have to deal with before we, you know, as part of culture and as part of the working life. And I don't know your thoughts on that. But to me, that's one of those issues that HR can kind of help that and kind of control the narrative there by talking about how employee engagement changes based on on those kinds of, I'll just call them Enix that come from a C suite.

 

Perry Doody  25:06

So it's interesting. One of the reasons I wanted to actually do my own thing for, you know, the next couple of years is I want to actually give my opinion freely on many of these issues, because I feel strongly about them. My business partner was from Finland, two years parental leave, that's what they get. Right? And I don't know, I think Finland is doing okay, it was right, I think one or two every year in terms of the one of the best places to live. I think it's because of the saunas that they have. But that's, that's a different discussion. But they've clearly figured something out, right. And so, when we talk about, I'd love the expression where people go, you know, we want outcomes, like we're outcome focused, we're not, we're not really focused on the tasks. And then you say, but I need you in the office four days a week. Yeah. Look, to to, to me, you're saying one thing. And you're kind of doing another. And, and that's, that's the way I look at it is that, you know, I think in some cases, hybrid is fine. In fact, maybe 100%, off premise, fine. If you're looking at the outcome, and it works for some people, and so I agree with you, like I, you know, and I, I follow a few people on LinkedIn, and they're really pushing, people need to come back. They're also in the real estate space, but I just look at it. And it, you know, nobody ever wants to say this. But sometimes things are complicated. And it takes some time to figure it out. It's not a binary thing. And I often find this is where the culture of your organization really, like you could differentiate it because culture matters, and how you approach an issue like this huge opportunity, because ultimately, David, what I think will happen is the market will decide who's right and who's not right,

 

David Turetsky  26:49

I totally agree with you, and people will vote with their feet, right. But when we talk about HR being more strategic versus tactical, this, to me is one of those core elements, this is one of those core times and decisions, that if you help the organization make the right call for the right reasons, then I'm not trying to get a hero thing here, you're not looked at as the hero, you're looked at as being more strategic. But if you just go along with the Yeah, we'll see how it goes. And you lose a lot of people from that. Or you get people who get disengaged, because they're like, how do I do this? Now I can't get people to cover, you know, when my kids get off the bus, what am I going to do? And the organization answer is always been figure it out. That ain't gonna work, man, that is not going to work anymore. Because there aren't the plenitude of people to be able to go and help, you know, like, go to care.com and try and find people to solve the problem. That's not the answer. I mean, care.com I love you, but it's not the answer for everybody.

 

Perry Doody  27:55

And by the way, I, you know, I two parents, my dad's 86, my mom's 82, helping them real issue for me, and one of the reasons I and I'm not believe me, I'm not alone in this time, right. So I even think of those issues, people with young kids. Why not enable that? Right? Like, you know, we talked about benefits, bonuses, all of those things. For a lot of people just give me the time to manage those situations and the flexibility. So I think those are situations when, when, but coming back to it, what it requires an HR leader to say what she or he thinks, and lay it out there and know that the other thing I would say is, but also come prepared. Don't like come with data come with like a solid case, just like I would tell anybody who's making a case, but hold your position. And I think this comes down to the individual in many cases supported by a team. But great, great example. And like I said, I it's not a binary question, it comes down to in many cases to individual situations and how the team works. And by the way, just on this, people forget, during COVID A lot of people hired employees remotely that weren't necessarily in the same place. So to say everyone's coming back. Okay. Like, are you sure you know what you're saying? But any?

 

David Turetsky  29:19

Exactly. Well, Perry, this has been a thoroughly enjoyable conversation. I really appreciate your perspective. I'm sure our listeners do too. Thank you so much for being here.

 

Perry Doody  29:38

Yeah. David, really nice to reconnect and having me as a guest really appreciate everything you do with your podcast.

 

David Turetsky  29:41

Thank you. And we'll probably have you back on and talk a little bit comp, because I know both of us have a long, long passion for compensation. We'll, we'll probably get you back home for that.

 

Perry Doody  29:51

And you're the crazy thing about that is David, I think there are spreadsheets that were built way back then that are still in existence today.

 

David Turetsky  29:57

Oh my gosh, they are. Now I'll tell you a story about the neck. All right, Perry, thank you so much. Take care. And thank you everybody and stay safe.

 

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