Carlee Wolfe – Change Management: Starting Simply

Connect with Carlee:

• 

Connect with Dwight:

• 
• dwight.brown@salary.com

Connect with David:

• 
• 
• david.turetsky@salary.com

 

Podcast Manager, Karissa Harris:

• HRDataLabs@salary.com

 

Production by Affogato Media

Resources:

• Hyatt Hotels Corporation
• Compensation Consulting Services
• HR Data Labs Season 4 Episode 12
• HR Data Labs Season 4 Episode 10

• “Information, support, and encouragement . . . If you're doing these three things as a leader, you're going to have better success in facilitating your transformation than you would have if not thinking about them at all.”
• “There's data and there's also insight. And I think we spend a lot of time talking about, ‘how do we get insights that are gonna matter?’ I think those insights can be reported in meaningful ways, right? . . . So I would just encourage folks to continue to find those insights. And when you're stuck, [ask yourself], ‘what's the most simple thing that we can go after today to at least get some of those insights?’”

Announcer: 0:02

Here's an experiment for you. Take passionate experts in human resource technology. Invite cross industry experts from inside and outside HR. Mix in what's happening in people analytics today. Give them the technology to connect, hit record for their discussions into a beaker. Mix thoroughly. And voila, you get the HR Data Labs podcast, where we explore the impact of data and analytics to your business. We may get passionate and even irreverent, that count on each episode challenging and enhancing your understanding of the way people data can be used to solve real world problems. Now, here's your host, David Turetsky.

 

David Turetsky: 0:46

Hello, and welcome to the HR Data Labs podcast. I am your host, David Turetsky. Like always, we have our friend and colleague Dwight Brown as co host. Hey, Dwight, how are you?

 

Dwight Brown: 0:56

David, how are you doing?

 

David Turetsky: 0:57

I'm doing awesome. Just got back from SHRM and boy, my arms are tired. And with us today, we have Carlee Wolfe, who is the director of organizational effectiveness with the Hyatt Hotels Corporation. Hey, Carlee, how are you?

 

Carlee Wolfe: 1:10

I'm good. How are both of you?

 

David Turetsky: 1:14

We are coming down from that dad joke.

 

Carlee Wolfe: 1:17

Yeah.

 

David Turetsky: 1:20

So Carlee, why don't you tell us a little bit about your background? Because you've got a really cool background for the for the audience.

 

Carlee Wolfe: 1:26

Yeah, thanks. So I, um, I've spent my career in talent in organizational development been privileged to play in that space since I left school. And I started my career was super lucky started working at USA volleyball, doing training and supporting coaches, which was, which was a ton of fun.

 

David Turetsky: 1:43

Wow.

 

Carlee Wolfe: 1:44

Yeah, super unique experience, I should say. And from there, I was able to move to United States Olympic and Paralympic Committee during a leadership development. So still in sport, having a good time of it from a different angle in the Talent and OD space. And then got to spend some time in for profit education doing more organizational development type work. So culture, change management, talent management, and employee engagement. And Ton of fun was there during a major industry shift doesn't have to be a part of a lot, a lot of HR changes inside and out. From there, I got to cut my teeth on consulting. So wanted to take that dip into the external facing world just to learn like what different brands and companies were doing when it comes to people and culture and missed the internal aspect. I always like talking to people about theirs, you know, you're in your own home. And there's like being a visitor in a home and so I missed in my own home. And so move back into industry taking a role it Under Armour, leading the change management function there also during major industry transformation. And from there and which is where I'm at right now Hyatt Hotels, leading our organizational effectiveness team. So there that's change management, it's employee engagement and experience as well as some leadership development work and culture. And so I moved I always like to tell people as I moved from one COVID industry to the other. Retail to hospitality. But I had found. It's been like an interesting, interesting time to be in both of those industries. Because you're huge brands who are also building back or reimagining not, though, I think all companies have been reimagining in this space. I think when you're cut down to your core, though, and re examining, you know, how do you get back to your purpose and really deliver on those promises something special, so, so yeah, that's where I'm at. That's a little bit about my career. I've moved around a bit to follow those opportunities, which I also appreciate to have been in and around the United States east coast, almost all the way to the west coast in Arizona.

 

David Turetsky: 3:38

That's cool. We were geeking out as you're going through your background, you know, you kept mentioning different things in different roles. And we're like, Wow, that's so cool. So

 

Dwight Brown: 3:45

That's cool, yeah.

 

David Turetsky: 3:46

We're living vicariously through you, certainly during the podcast, but probably afterwards as well.

 

Carlee Wolfe: 3:51

Yeah, I think when I left college, like a good college student when people were like, What do you want to do? I think my answer is something like I want to do something cool. Whatever that something was. I didn't know what something was. I happened to land in the space I'm in today but at least starting with a cool brand like USA volleyball or opportunity. Yeah, all kinds of cool stories you

 

David Turetsky: 4:10

Definitely hopped also to really very nice, very public brands, which I think is very laudable as well.

 

Dwight Brown: 4:17

Yeah, that's not always an easy step to make.

 

David Turetsky: 4:21

So one fun thing that you may not know about Carlee is Carlee spells her name very interesting. And she's going to tell us why.

 

Carlee Wolfe: 4:31

So I this is a good question. And by the way, a true question of like, tell me something you don't know or that you'd want to know I think like maybe my close friends know the answer this which is. So Carlee C A R L E E is the correct spelling my name, is actually kind of a family name. So I my mom's side, her mom's name was Carol. And her dad's name was Leeland. Both people that I didn't get an opportunity to know because they passed away one Leeland before I was born and Carol just after I was born, but it's like a nice fun family carry on. It's a little bit different right, not first name, middle name, just kind of this nice blend people that have mattered in my family's life. So that's why Carlee C A R L E E has come to be. And also, I think it was good opportunities for nicknames too. You can split Car you can split Lee, which have all been nicknames throughout my life. But that's that's how it came to be.

 

David Turetsky: 5:27

Very cool.

 

Dwight Brown: 5:28

That's cool.

 

Carlee Wolfe: 5:29

Yeah.

 

David Turetsky: 5:31

So our topic for today is one that really cuts to a lot of the heart of the matter of the HR Data Labs podcast, which is change management, measuring starting simply really excited to talk about this. So Carlee, our first question is around change management, it's often viewed as really difficult to manage, why is it important? And how do you measure? And why wouldn't you?

 

Carlee Wolfe: 6:03

Yeah. Okay, so I am very passionate about this topic, because I've been in the change space for a while. And I think every organization that ever invested in change management, always looking for the silver bullet on number one, what do we do? And number two, how do we know that it's successful? And I have found that change because it always has to do with people, right, like humans and behaviors and our belief systems, right? Like that's hard to measure. And by the way, it's also hard to quote unquote, manage. We're not like managing people, like how do we inspire and create meaning from change is kind of the way I like to look at it. And so when you talk about measuring that, it's always a tough question. So why is it important? Well, like anything you're making an investment! A company is saying, hey, I want to dedicate resources, or I want to dedicate mindshare capacity to facilitate successful change, right, we've made an investment in a technology and a process, a way of working a way of being that we want to realize. And in order to do that, we have to inspire people to come along on the journey. So why is it important to measure is you want to be able to say like, did we actually achieve that business outcome or that objective that we were after? And the reason why I think sometimes simple is better is back to the human dynamics component, is that it can be very complex. And it can also feel very soft, right? When you're meeting with an executive, and you're seeing people feel good about this change. Like, okay, like, how does that hit the bottom line? So simplicity, I think that that matters in can, if you can make it, by the way, simple doesn't always mean, I think from a, when you're constructing what simple looks like, you still have to peel back the onion, right? What are we trying to achieve? And how do we how do we get to that measure of success? And so by simplicity, I mean, what is it that we're trying to do? Right? What's the change? And what are the indicators that we're looking for that drive that success? And how can we create a measure in which to report on that? And so I've seen something as simple as you know, in a project, we've talked about, how do we, we have a bunch of leaders in front of us who are leading a very difficult change, they're probably a little scared about that, whether they want to admit it or not, there's probably sort of that gut intuition of like, I've never done this before, or have a lot of people staring at me asking them questions that I don't know. And that feels uncomfortable, right? So there's this sort of worry that comes with leaders and leading large transformation. And so I've when I talk about simplicity, I've seen it where we even just ask leaders, like how confident or comfortable are you in communicating this change? Right? And then insert change management intervention could be a, here's your communication toolkit, here's a training that we've done, and then re asking that question like, what's your confidence now? And just seeing like, did we move the needle in a before and after sentiment, before we send leaders off off to drive the change? So that's what I'm talking about? Simple. I don't think it has to be, you know, this big dashboard, I don't think we have to look at crazy metrics, I think it could just be down to the bare bones of like, what are we asking people to do?

 

David Turetsky: 8:58

I think one of the keys though, is to be able to outline what the goal was from the beginning. Because having a very clear goal as to what the change is for. And then being able to measure that should be simple, that you have a really measurable, achievable, you know, smart, if you if you want to use that term goal that you're trying to achieve. I think we kind of lose that sometimes, especially in HR transformations, is what was the original goal? And when we set out to do this, did we do the right thing with measurement? Do we do the right thing with investment? Did we do the right thing with providing the right tools and then test them along the way to make sure that either we did use the right things? And we're still on target from the original ask or do we need to take a different direction because we've been pushed in a different direction because markets change, the economic conditions change? The pandemic has changed a lot of things, right?

 

Carlee Wolfe: 9:56

Yeah, and I think you're touching on something too, when we talk about simple it's also what did we influence or do that we want to measure as well, right? And I think that's where it can become complicated. So for example, if you have to help people along, we want to do a training, right? Like, how are you leaning in to just measure some of that like skill aspect that's going to be important for the change? I always I love always love the analogy of fitness. I don't know if it's because I grew up in sports industry, where I just love sports and fitness in general. But it's like, you know, if you want to lose weight, sure, you could just look at the scale every time. And that's simple enough. But what changes are you making to get to that outcome? Right, and so maybe one week you're looking at, not even a week, like month or two, you're looking at maybe your food intake, and that is a measure in of itself. Or you're looking at your workout routine. And that could be a measure in and of itself. And so I think that the same thing with change, like how do you just break it down to, to your point, like, what are we trying to do, right? And then with the strategies that we're employing, like, how do we measure that and be specific and know that that strategy is actually having an impact on the outcome?

 

Dwight Brown: 10:59

Yeah, I mean, that is so key, because it really it simplicity is very difficult for us, especially when we're going through changes and doing projects that require big change. And, you know, being able to get people to filter it down to what are the vital few. And that's always a difficult conversation or difficult set of conversations. Everybody's got their own view. And but spending that time upfront and getting to that simplicity that you talked about, is is key in so many arenas.

 

Carlee Wolfe: 11:32

Definitely. And I think one way you can help break that down, too, is like continually asking, like the why and the how, why, why? How would we measure that? And I think that's where you start to get down into that like simple, yet valuable nugget. And then the other thing I was talking about when you're talking is either one of the questions is like, Well, why not? Why not measure? And I think sometimes people get hung up on those right complications, or trying to take in every stakeholder need or every opinion. But if we ask why, and how, why, and how, why and how, right, at least we can get to something that's palatable. And by the way, we're doing it like I could, I could probably name 100 times where I've been on projects where we actually, I think, unintentionally, just stop talking about it or don't keep a pulse on things. Because it feels so complex, you're like, I don't know how we're gonna pinpoint success. So we'll just almost like we'll see how it goes.

 

Announcer: 12:22

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David Turetsky: 12:34

I think you bring up a good point that actually gets us to question number two, which is, how have you evolved your change measures over time? What did you do? And where do you go?

 

Carlee Wolfe: 12:47

Yeah, I think we'll just go ahead and kind of what do I was saying of like, where do you focus? Or how do you like, you know, lean in to make it simple. One thing I for change management, I've been trying to over the years come up with like, alright, what is it? What is a good change strategy? What if you do A, B and C, you will get success. And for anyone that's ever easy to change practitioners ever Google change management, like there's a million charts, there's a million models, there's a lot out there. And for me, what I've evolved over time is kind of it's kind of come down to three things for me. So one is information, right? Like how are you informing and equipping people on what a change is? Or how it impacts them specifically, right, like the what's in it for me? But how do you? How do you share that information so that it's meaningful that connects to support? Right? What support do people need, and going through change in support can be anything from hey, I need to do training. In other words, there's like skill building, or can be support, like, I just need to check in with this person, because it's a little bit of an emotional journey for them, and I need to show that I'm invested in them still, or support could be, hey, this person's making a career change, I really need to get them a mentor, I need to like think about what sort of resources they might need. So support. And then the last one like encouragement, use use the phrase like walk the talk, like that's part of that. It's also the recognition, like, what need, what behavior are we looking for in this new environment? Or in this new way of working? How do we reward and recognize and that could be a traditional sense of like, Hey, nice job, high five, to you know, rewards to even reward systems, right? Like, what is it? What are the routines in an organization that either support or take away from a behavioral expectation that we might want to shift so that we're encouraging people? So information, support, encouragement, are like the three those are the three things that have come down to and change that if you're doing these three things as a leader, you're going to have better success in facilitating your your transformation then you would have have not thinking about it at all. And so how that plays into that. How do you measure that? It's looking at, okay, how do we know that people receive their Information, right? How do we start breaking down and making measures? So it could be things like, are we dropping an Easter egg? Like in the email communication, where people get to see like, yeah, I read that. Or maybe they get like a little reward.

 

David Turetsky: 15:13

Sorry, hold on a second, I have to interrupt you. Are you saying people don't read emails?

 

Carlee Wolfe: 15:17

I don't know about in your experience, but in my experience...

 

David Turetsky: 15:21

Because you're talking about dropping easter eggs in like, you're trying to encourage people to read, but you always read emails, don't they?

 

Carlee Wolfe: 15:28

I know. It's crazy. It's a crazy thought. If it's the craziest one that I've left today, at least we've like started.

 

David Turetsky: 15:35

Yeah, well I have 100,000 emails that are unread. On my personal side. On the business side, it's only down to five or six, of course. But that becomes one of the problems though, right? When you're trying to make sure change management happens. And one of the keys is you're communicating through email. How do you make sure that they read it? And how do you make sure they're still a participant in your process? When emails are the most ignored form of communication these days? Right?

 

Carlee Wolfe: 16:07

Definitely. I mean, I think so even just the Easter egg idea is just based on that, which is like people don't really read, maybe there's some really important things, and then that starts more word of mouth, right? It's probably not going to be a expectation that everyone's like, Oh, I need to go get a little reward my email, but it'd be like, oh, you know, Dan, over there, just read the email and told me to like, go check it out, too, because he found this right. But so that's one just move that aside, that's where I was like going with the email, which is like, how do you maybe inspire or Ignite, but I think what you're touching on is something much more important, which is it's not just about the email communications, like, what are you doing to reach the hearts and minds and souls of the people that work for your organization? And so part of that is then taking a look at those informal channels? And like, how do people work? Right, like our tech team might use, like Confluence and social channels, whereas HR might be more like, Hey, we're still hitting the once a month, like HR meeting. So how do you tap into those things to also communicate the message? And then in the spirit of measurement? My next question, just as it would have been with an email or anything that we're saying, which is, how do we know that the message was received? Or understood or on? And if you're, if you're tapped into a routine, like, let's go with the meeting, maybe I can just do a quick survey after the meeting, or even in the meeting, I can just do a quick show of hands show hands.

 

David Turetsky: 17:29

Yeah. Well, and you know, on the web, and in lots of communities, we use polling, as a way of being able to capture not quizzes, but polling, you know, did the message get through to you, you know, ABC, what are the three things you took away from A, B, C, D, E, you know, choose the choose the ones that resonated with your, or that you that you think you learn from it. And then people might have to go back and re engage with the change management to be able to make sure that they actually did. But But I don't know why we don't check ourselves. And as kids we were quizzed and tested all the time. And I guess my question is, why wouldn't we, I mean, we're all mature here. We all know that a lot of these things are critical. And the measurement of the did that change management work is critical. So why wouldn't we, you know, force people to kind of tell us, you know, did they really learned what we hope they learned?

 

Dwight Brown: 18:21

One thought that I have on it is, and this is this has really become my pet peeve is the topic of survey fatigue. And every time I go and do anything, I get a survey. You know, if I call a customer service line, I, within a minute, I get a survey from them, no matter how short, my question, did we resolve your problem? And will you take this two minute survey for us? And so I think you have to be selective about how you do that polling. And sometimes I think you also have to be creative about it. You need to keep your your your eyes and ears open to buzz, things that may not be you may not specifically be polling people, but you can start to get a sense just from the way they're talking and the things that they're saying that, hey, that message is sinking in. And yes, I understood it or you're just not hearing anything. You're getting crickets with it. So yeah, I think your points a good point. David. The your points a good point. But it it does get difficult and it gets difficult to get good measurement on it. And you have to I think you have to get creative sometimes, but

 

Carlee Wolfe: 19:32

for sure. You were making me think of after you. You said the emails that you get from customer service calls. My favorite is when you get on the phone, and you waited five minutes just to even get to a person and then they say would you be willing to stay an extra minute or two to answer ours questions?

 

Dwight Brown: 19:48

Hell no!

 

David Turetsky: 19:52

But Carlee, I think the things that both you enjoyed are talking about, though, require us to provide that feedback because I sat on calls for a half an hour, five times in a row to try and resolve an issue I had with my mobile provider and their insurance company for a specific issue I was having. And I kept trying to get to resolution, they said that they resolve my problem, and then I'd get an email the next day saying I didn't. And so I did provide that feedback. And I was very, you know, let's just say animated, but not too much. So they wouldn't listen to me. And so that's where I come back to the if I need to measure the effectiveness of change management, and we're all mature adults, and we're in a business situation, I need to be able to ask my people internally, how did you? How do you reflect on that? What's your response from it? How did this touch you? And did we do the right things? Do you understand the messages? Because if not, then we may have actually wasted that money, we may have wasted that time. And that's why I think we need to be we need to hold people inside our organizations to a higher level of it doesn't matter that you had that problem, you know, from Hyatt Hotels sending you the customer survey. But when we're asking you about change management surveys from corporate, we should get an answer back. High end to very high end.

 

Dwight Brown: 21:17

Good point.

 

Carlee Wolfe: 21:18

Yeah. I mean, I think that's important. And with that, when you talk about survey fatigue, I think if at the organization level, we're being intentional about what we are asking what we're asking, and how often I think that that becomes your point, kind of that business expectation, and it doesn't, hopefully doesn't feel like over burden. I think the other thing you're talking about, which is interesting, and it's all still sticks in the measurement, because we talked about, like informal and simple, I think it could be like, let's just use this meeting that we're talking about, right? What if instead of sending a survey after the meeting, are you going to poll in the meeting? What if we did, I think one of the challenges was how do we make it fun or unique? All these tools have fun things tied to them. Like I think about zoom today. My favorite thing is to open up the little emoji options and just get a vote that way. I'd be like, All right, put in the lizard, if you agree, put in the diamond If you disagree, right, so So even you can do you know, a quick check on that. in fun ways that also, again, it gives you insight, right? People are on board or not on board, or, or multitasking. I'm out. I'm like, where's your diamond? And I think where we started with this to around quote unquote, expectation. I think it also sits in, I'll go back to my bucket of support. But more importantly, like leadership, how the role of leadership plays in caring for others, I think checking in is an appropriate expectation, don't you want to be checking in with your people, because if they're in this case, going through a change, they're going to need things, they're going to need support, they're going to need information, they're going to need encouragement. And if you're not checking along the way, you're just guessing, and you may or may not be hitting the mark, if you're even doing anything at all to help your colleagues. So I think that that's an I agree with you on that sort of business expectation, which is how are we caring for one another.

 

David Turetsky: 23:13

Do you think that the leader should be the one that does the measurement, or that is, you know, sponsoring measurement? Obviously, they're not hitting the button on send, right? But, but if it's coming from that leader, and she or he has that really interesting way of communicating, and hopefully that comes across in the language used as well. So it's doesn't sound like it wasn't them. But it comes from them. It's their name on it. And they're asking, Hey, how did this affect you? I would just want to know, let's say maybe one question survey like an NPS? Are you saying that that's a more effective way of having it happen?

 

Carlee Wolfe: 23:46

I think what I was suggesting was more just kind of the approach of, you know, your sentiment of like, do we require people in business to? And I was like, I think if you care about people, you should be checking in? And do your question, though, it's making me think, which is, I think you could I think you could do both, I think you can give a construct to leaders to manage change locally, right. And they're also equipped to say, like, hey, my team is really struggling with this another data point that rolls up, I think you could also shape it out. And I've seen this done before, which is you give that leader a construct, like, Hey, make sure you're checking in with your team. And then you as a leader, I'm gonna send you a survey and make it up once a month, to see how you and your team are doing. Right? So they're kind of informally checking, then we're doing a formal measure to have that data coming in so that we also have organizational insights. So I think the answer is yes to your question, right? It could be all the above because measuring insight can come from a lot of different ways and it can serve different purpose. What we're talking about is does it serve the center or does it serve the local execution?

 

David Turetsky: 24:48

So Carlee that brings up the next question, which is what is your favorite way, though, of measuring change

 

Carlee Wolfe: 25:03

my favorite way, I would say. So there's two things that I love doing. One is like before and after, right before change during change after change. I think the other is also and then surfacing that in comparative ways. So for example, today, we're actually going through a big change acquisition where we're bringing teams together. And so we've started doing working norms, looking at working norms, literally styles, like how quickly do you respond to an email? When you make a decision? Is it final or not final? How does influence happen, right? And these these working norms often can be a rub in a relationship, right? If you have a different perspective on day of working than I do, right, we're going to probably lose some trust in that situation, and probably be some frustrating points. So we're doing we're using surveys, but we're looking at right two legacy organizations coming together. If you have a dataset from one company and a dataset from another company, how are those working norms coming together? Right, if Company A does it one way, and company B does another word, one, just having that data gives us insight? Oh, that's why I've been struggling with so and so like, they're just working in a different style. Awareness is important. And then the next part of that is like, what do we want to do with that? So in the working norm space, it's, Hey, we want to like tweak a way that we a routine that we have, like when we think about meeting routines, maybe now we have an agenda, and we have a decision maker identified at the start. So I love that that was kind of just a into an example. But my answer is like I love that before look and after look, because one, it gives you a benchmark, and it sees you can see if you've made progress, if you've been struggling. It tells a good story, too, right? This is where we were before, here's how we're progressing. And then I also love that comparative space. I used it in the case of like team on team. But I think you can compare functions. I think you can compare periods of time, I think you can compare, hey, we employed this change strategy at this juncture in the timeline. How do we compare that to when we implemented a different strategy? Was that more effective? So that's something I've come to really love is that comparative and time.

 

David Turetsky: 27:09

It's fascinating, though, that you brought it up in the context of an m&a Right, that's an obvious application of it. But there are less obvious applications that I think, you know, our listeners could take and utilize in their daily work, which is literally almost every freaking change, because there's going to be a before and after, there's going to be a different way of working, whether it's implementation of a new technology, whether it's, you know, from the compensation world, introducing pay transparency, and how does that affect you? And knowing how the company wants us to react and being able to break down some of those traditional patterns in the before and after it. It would be fascinating to do that analysis, wouldn't it?

 

Carlee Wolfe: 27:56

Oh, for sure. Before, after, along the way, like think of the like multi year transformations, where even if you're just asking, even if you're just asking about sentiment, right, like how are people feeling about the change? And that's an ongoing question that you're asking, you're able to see those peaks and valleys where people might be stuck or feeling really good. And those are insights that well, we don't have today. If we don't ask then then the next question is, well, what do we want to do with it? So? Yeah, totally. I think you give a lot of good examples. And I would add, yeah, I would add in also local things, right, we talked about job changes, or shifts and responsibilities, be becoming a leader, right, there's a lot of stuff that you can

 

David Turetsky: 28:37

I was going to say new CEM, new CHR, any new leadership causes dramatic or dramatic ways of, of looking at the world? Politics, for example, I don't mean politics in the outside world, I mean, internal corporate politics, they really do matter. And when you're managing or you're trying to measure the change of of that transformation, it at least informs, what do we need to do? Is there any different messaging we probably need to put out there in order to be able to deal with it?

 

Carlee Wolfe: 29:05

Absolutely. Again, insight and anything that you didn't have before. And within that, you can take action.

 

David Turetsky: 29:10

Sometimes I feel like, yeah, when we make big changes, and we don't support our managers and employees in, in being able to provide them with the right data or the right understanding, I'll give you an example of when we're doing a merit increase, and especially merit increase during really hard economic times. Wouldn't it be great to be able to give out, you know, or to do some change management or to, you know, be able to train people on? How is the world around us affecting our processes here? What's going to be in your check after the merit increase process and why and how do we come up with the decision to do what we did? Instead of just deal with it? It's the business reality of where we are, which I think a lot of organizations had to do.

 

Dwight Brown: 29:51

The shove it shove it down your throat approach. Yep.

 

David Turetsky: 29:53

And then measure it and see, should we have done something differently?

 

Dwight Brown: 29:57

Yep. Right. Did we miss the mark on this?

 

Carlee Wolfe: 30:01

All those questions I think can be flipped. Yeah, for asking people again, insights, and then we can take action.

 

David Turetsky: 30:06

Unfortunately, we get a lot of feedback by people walking out the door.

 

Carlee Wolfe: 30:12

Right the unwritten feedback?

 

Dwight Brown: 30:13

Well, and you just hit on an important point, Carlee, when you said, we take action, you've got to be willing to take action with it. Because it's one thing to get the data points and to understand what's going on. It's another thing to actually take action, especially if that action means reversing course, on the change that you're trying to make. There are times where it's appropriate to say, okay, timeout, we need to pause, or wow, we really missed it on that one. And we need to we need to go backwards on this.

 

Carlee Wolfe: 30:44

100%. Yeah, what are we willing to evolve, improve, sacrifice in that receiving feedback? Yeah.

 

David Turetsky: 31:00

So Carlee, I think we've talked a lot about change management, and the use of data and being able to manage the change. We've talked about how you might be able to evolve some measures over time as you're doing it. And also, we looked at some of your favorite ways of actually measuring change. Anything else that you wanted to add? Before we close?

 

Carlee Wolfe: 31:19

I think I would just go back to one, the simplicity, I think, just in our dialogue, the three of us have been able to kind of get down to like, why it's important, what are the sort of things that you can ask and make it also in a fun way, so that you're, you're getting that information? And I think the other thing I've even just been realizing, as we've been talking about is there's, you know, data, and there's also insight, and I think what we spend a lot of time talking about is like, how do we get insights that are going to matter. And I think those insights can also be reported in meaningful ways, right? Drive business decisions, help facilitate better and more effective change, have colleagues and employees feel like they're heard and cared about, like, I think those would all be outcomes. So I would just encourage folks to continue to find those insights. And when you're stuck, just what's the most, what's the most simple thing that we can go after today to at least get some of those insights, that will, will then facilitate more, because also, what I found is, insights inspire more, right, you get more investment from folks to want to dig in or to capture more. So I would just leave with that. Because I think insight is powerful. And it also grows in maturity for what people can consume or buy into when you talk about data and an impact. So and I also just really appreciate being here.

 

David Turetsky: 32:34

It's our pleasure. Thank you very much for being here.

 

Dwight Brown: 32:35

Yeah. Thank you for being with us.

 

David Turetsky: 32:38

And thank you for listening, take care and stay safe.

 

Announcer: 32:42

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