DE&I: Where We Are vs. Where We Want to Be, and How to Get There

Connect with Tommi Paris:

Connect with Danielle Dos Santos:

Connect with Franchesca Carrington:

Connect with Lenna Turner:

Related Resources:

• What is DE&I: Part of the “Improving DE&I for SMBs” Series
• Improving DE&I For Small & Medium Businesses
• Managing Change: Part of the “Improving DE&I for SMBs” Series
• HR Data Labs Podcast S4/EP21 - Dermot O’Brien – Building DEI Into a Company Framework
• Episode 7 – Complying with California’s New Pay Transparency Law
• Episode 9 – Developing Fintech in Africa with Carl Powell

SPEAKERS

Lenna Turner, Danielle Beckford, Tommi Paris, Kevin Plunkett, Franchesca Carrington

Franchesca Carrington  00:04

What does the AI look like in your organization?

Lenna Turner  00:07

We have such a checkered past with race here in the United States in America, that we think everything is about that diversity has so many layers.

Tommi Paris  00:18

And the more that we're able to show that we're embedding diversity, equity inclusion principles at every step along the way, I think the more attractive we become the candidates, when they're not clear, transparent, talks about pay, people are disliked turned off.

Danielle Beckford  00:33

A candidate straight out asked what was our company's stance and what we're doing to support it. And I remember, like, almost I think I audibly gasped, because it was just something that I had never heard in that format. And I was not prepared for that question.

Kevin Plunkett  00:46

Diversity, equity, and inclusion isn't just window dressing, employees are expecting it. And we need to reframe how we think about differences in workplace.

Danielle Beckford  00:57

How someone having a voice that was different than everyone else's voice brought a new idea or pushed an initiative forward or did something interesting, really celebrating those wins.

Kevin Plunkett  01:07

DE&I can be transformative for a company, especially if it's measured.

Franchesca Carrington  01:13

What is the ROI? You know, what is the impact on the business by having DEI because again, it is a business function. So really having that conversation about this is how the work that we're doing is impacting the organization, because they truly is connected to everything in the organization.

Kevin Plunkett  01:35

And like everything else, getting started, can be daunting.

Lenna Turner  01:39

Start wherever you are, and look around, do some of these first steps and understand what's going to work for you and your culture.

Tommi Paris  01:46

I believe wholeheartedly all that every person has a diversity equity inclusion story, you just have to look for it right. Some of us have to work harder than others.

Kevin Plunkett  01:57

We're going to explore the benefits of a diversity, equity and inclusion program and what it means for your organization right here, right now. This is Get Pay Right, the podcast that dives deep into the current compensation topics that matter to you most, so you can get it right every time. I'm your host, Kevin Plunkett, and welcome. This week, we have a special edition. My colleague Lenna Turner hosted a roundtable of DEI and HR leaders to discuss the results of our latest survey, the second annual intentions versus action survey, which examines what companies are doing regarding DEI. And rather than try to recreate the whole discussion, we took highlights of what was a very engaging and fascinating conversation. There will be links to both the full discussion and the results of the survey in the show notes under Resources. I encourage you all to listen. So let's pick things up as Lenffna is introducing her guests.

Lenna Turner  03:13

Hello, everyone. Thank you so much for joining us today. We have some wonderful speakers from the diversity, equity inclusion and the HR profession that are going to talk to us about this topic. The topic was born out of our second annual intentions versus action survey, diversity, equity inclusion, intentions versus actions. This is our second year conducting the survey. We had over 600 plus respondents give us answers to 17 unique questions that were a two pronged approach, asking what your intentions are around particular diversity initiatives and what your actual actions are and what you're actually doing. So the results came back and we have gathered a panel to talk about some of those results, give us some of their insights based on their background and their journey and their experience in the space. So we're going to meet our speakers and they'll introduce themselves give a little bit of their background. And we'll start with Franchesca then over to Danielle then over to Tommi and then we'll start the discussion.

Franchesca Carrington  04:20

Hi everyone. Thanks Lenna. I'm Franchesca caring to the nines and vice president of dei and talent development at SharkNinja. I've been with the organization for about a year and six months, but in the DEI space in the talent and development space for, I don't know maybe 15 plus years. So I have definitely been in the space for a very long time. And I'm excited to be here with you today. Okay, thank you. Thanks Lenna.

Danielle Beckford  04:48

Hi everybody. Great to be here. I'm Danielle Beck for I'm the Vice President of Human Resources here at Salary.com. I've been with the company for just over three years now. My main focus is on talent and development. But I partner very closely with Lenna working on our diversity, equity and inclusion initiatives. And very excited to be a part of this today. Thanks, everybody.

Tommi Paris  05:10

Good afternoon, I'm Tommi Paris, DEI and EJ advisor with Adamantine Energy and when I reflect on my career so far, the word kind of comes to mind builder, right? As a builder, you know, conversations like today's you really stay top of mind, because DEI is iterative, right? We're never coasting, we're always trying to close that gap between what we say we're going to do and what we're actually doing. And so I think we're always going to be going back to that narrative that we construct or the path that we lay out initially, right, and check against the progress that we are making, or maybe that we're not making and make adjustments along the way. So I think today's conversation is really important. And I'm excited to be here.

Lenna Turner  05:52

Thank you, Tommi. So let's get down to the conversation. The first question I'll throw up, how did you or how have you seen or heard others, actually get that senior leadership support, and we know being around HR or diversity programs or in on the periphery, all of HR, any program, it doesn't have to be HR, getting a mandate to actually have it happen is very, very important. So how did you get senior leadership support? Tell me, you've been a lot of places. And I'm sure leadership looks different at every place, almost there probably some similarities. But how did you get leadership, say, when you build the whole program across the five different? Absolutely, yeah, absolutely.

Tommi Paris  06:39

You know, from my experience, once our senior leaders became accountable for diversity, equity and inclusion in some meaningful way, Boy, that's a board game. I mean, it was, it was beautiful, to be honest, and I hate to kind of put the burden on the CEO or even the board. But at the end of the day, if they are pushing the work as vital to our organization's success, that is when it trickles down. And I'll, you know, say like, in my role as director, one of the things I remember, one of the last things I remember, leaving the implementation of before I went on to another opportunity was our diversity, equity and inclusion performance goals for all employees. That means from the most entry level employee to the CEO. And, you know, when senior leaders had to speak to the culture they were creating within their business units, that's when you know, that's when the support happened, right. So that included being able to speak to the representation metrics that they either, you know, were able to hit or not, and other you know, accountabilities that they have to speak to and once that happens, my team got tapped a lot. It was honestly a blessing and a curse. Because we were stretched thin, and we were already a mighty small team. But once that happens, that's when the leadership support really ramped up. So whenever, you know, we can increase accountability around the work, I think that leadership support will surely follow.

Franchesca Carrington  08:07

I agree with Tommi, you know, I would say that I was fortunate when, you know, joining the organization joining SharkNinja, because DEI started at the sea level. So it started with the president of the company. However, you know, when I was considering joining the organization, that is the question that I asked, because, of course, we all know that DEI goes nowhere, if it doesn't start really at the sea level. So you need it to start there in order for it to trickle down in order to hold, you know, everyone in the organization accountable. So the senior leadership support was there when I joined the organization. But I was very targeted, and very specific in my questions when I was considering, you know, this opportunity. And so to me, I feel like that was the right place, that was the right place for it to start, it also spoke to how successful it was going to be in the organization, you know, and then that having that partnership with the senior leadership team, to even say, here are some of the challenges and roadblocks that we're facing within the DEI space. And this is where I need your help. This is where I need your partnership. And that is, you know, DEI continuing to hold the senior leaders accountable for that. So for me, you know, it was it started, I think I joined an organization that was ready for it.

Tommi Paris  09:38

Franchesca, you made such good points. A couple of things. I just wanted to double click on if I could. The first is about making the work personal, right. I it's just it's so important because one of the things that often happens is people distance themselves, particularly leaders right from the work because, you know, it's like, well, it's their issue or their problem or their work to engage in and they feel left out. But they also kind of leave themselves out by not connecting to the work in a meaningful way. And I believe wholeheartedly that every person has a diversity, equity and inclusion story, we just have to look for it right, some of us have to look harder than others, right. And so one of the most powerful exercises I remember offering to our executive leadership team was a creating a personal statement around diversity, equity and inclusion. And that, you know, enabled everybody to kind of connect it to the work in a meaningful way, so that they didn't feel like a fraud when they went to the organizations to talk about it. And to really set the tone and set the culture from the top.

Lenna Turner  10:44

I love that I love having leaders or even throughout the employee ranks, create their own personal diversity, equity inclusion statement or diversity statement, whatever you call it. Because, you know, and I say this almost in every column on we have such a checkered past with race here in the United States, in America, that we think everything is about that diversity has so many layers. diversity includes religion, neurodiversity, just all kinds of things that people can lean into and create their own diverse story. It doesn't have to do always with race or gender, because it's very layered. And it's a little more complicated than or complex. Danielle, what do you think about that?

Danielle Beckford  11:29

At the C suite level? I think keeping diversity, equity and inclusion, part of the conversation and every conversation as we make plans for other topics. So when we talk about performance management, how can we find KPIs or accountability points around diversity, equity, inclusion, or recruiting? How can we infuse that into the process? How can we form our mission, vision and value statements for the company around DEI? So finding those ways that the conversations that I'm specifically involved in when it comes to tactical and strategic planning for the company, making sure that we keep bringing DEI into focus and looking at it through that lens and partnering?

Lenna Turner  12:09

I love that. Thank you. This leads into my next question, what kind of budgetary support do you think is needed? And how do you secure that? I mean, it's, it's, it's a program or initiative that is very impactful. But oftentimes, we do need support a and that support budget comes in the form. Mostly, we need a resource. You already said you're a lean shop, sometimes it's a sharp one, how do you get that support?

Tommi Paris  12:34

The dynamics are within our organizations around but it's like they're so unique, right. And so I think having the organizational savvy around what works in dozens in your organization is really important. I'll tell you, one of the things that worked well, for us was reporting out progress, like other business metrics, because a lot of times, you know, diversity, equity inclusion is is kind of an add on or perceived right to be such an add on. And so, for example, we calculated the talent move percentages, like promotions, and lateral moves of our ERG leaders and connected that effort to the response of our employee engagement survey results where employees clearly stated, hey, career advancement is important for us, right. And so being able to connect to business metrics that were important was really helpful for us. And also one of the tidbits that I learned from an executive in one of our sister companies, I loved her she was terrific. She talked about making the invisible visible. So you know, the invisible progress of di can sometimes go under the radar, if we're not intentional around publicizing the results. And so but we had an annual impact report where we made sure for example, executives received copies it really, everybody, all employees received copies. And we made those, you know, tangible results of talent move percentage increase, for example, it connected that to our engagement survey results. And that's where, you know, people were seeing the connection, seeing the progress and saying, okay, they're doing some meaningful work. So I think that that's something that's helpful in making the case of getting more budget and more support for all the work.

Franchesca Carrington  14:14

Absolutely, I agree. I am a data person. And so I lead with data, I talk about data, I talk about metrics, but absolutely what Tommi was saying and connecting it to business objectives, is really how I have been able to get budget. So showing, you know, what, what is the ROI, you know, what is the impact on the business by having the EI because, again, it is a business function, you know, so it's no different than marketing is no different than human resources or product development, you know, whatever it is. So really having that conversation about, you know, dei is a business function and this is how the work that we're doing is impacting the organization, because they truly is connected to everything in the organization.

Lenna Turner  15:07

So that kind of leads into the next question. Have you guys seen recruits make diversity, equity inclusion of focal point of their interview and selection process? And I will pivot to Danielle first. Because from an HR perspective, I imagine you talk to tons of people, tons of interviews, sometimes we can't get you because you have so many interviews to do. But I know that it's just a big part of the HR function. So what are you seeing? What do you think about that?

Danielle Beckford  15:39

Yeah, I do remember the first time DEI came into the conversations a very strong way, it was the beginning half of 2020. And something really substantial. It happened in the world, and candidates straight out asked what was our company's stance, and what were you doing to support it? And I remember, like, almost I think I audibly gasped, because it was just something that I had never heard in that format. And I was not prepared for that question. And it brought up a lot of good conversation as an organization of what are we doing? And why don't we have a good answer to that question. So from then on, I've definitely seen a consistent trend of asking a lot of questions maybe not quite that direct and specific. But I think along the lines of inclusion and belonging from a remote standpoint, companies do have to be taking an extra step to make sure that employees are feeling included, and they feel like they have a place in the organization. So I get a lot of questions around how diversity is a part of decision making processes. When it comes to promotions, I get questions about the leadership team and what that looks like, I get questions about how will I fit in here? Well, where will I fit in here? How do I become part of the organization? So we see a lot of that also employee resource groups, you know, I think, two or three years ago, if I said we have ERGs, most candidates would ask, what's that? And now they're asking, what are the ERG is how do I get involved? What specific topics are you open to different topics? So this language, these expectations, they're absolutely coming up. And because diversity, equity and inclusion is part of the culture, I think that that will that will only continue to be more of an expectation and questions when employees want to know what what culture they would be hired into.

Lenna Turner  17:24

Exactly, Franchesca?

Franchesca Carrington  17:26

So I'm sitting here nodding my head, Danielle, because everything, I'm told, signing on everything that you're saying right now, because that is that has definitely been my experience. And I love it. I love that the candidates are asking, and not only asking, but it's an expectation. And so whenever I am partnering with my university relations partners, for example, and working career fairs, you know, I say to them, ask the question, absolutely. Ask everyone at this career fair? What is the what does the EI look like in your organization? But yes, I think that candidates, and this is something that I say to leaders all the time that they are making decisions based on if an organization has, you know, Diversity, Equity and Inclusion at the forefront. So they are making those types of decisions is not just about pay. It's also about what type of culture Am I coming into? Is it an inclusive and welcoming culture? You know, is it a culture that, you know, promotes speak up culture, for example, what Tommi was saying, so they are being very intentional about their decisions as well about where and how they want to work. So I definitely have seen it. I love it. I love that conversation. I love the questions that they are asking, you know, like I said, I've been in DEI forever. And so it's good that these types of questions are being asked, and these are the expectations now for organizations.

Tommi Paris  19:03

Yeah, absolutely. Getting this cosign, cosign, just cosign all the way around. I mean, we all know that candidates are absolutely paying attention. I talk to a lot of folks who are getting headhunted right and poached. And, you know, in the beginning conversations or the beginning stages of the conversations, when they're not clear, transparent, talks about pay, people are disliked turned off. Right, you know, if if the posting doesn't have clearly stated the salary range. So like you have some states are moving toward, or if the recruiter isn't forthcoming, right? They're asking, you know, what was your pay history versus Hey, this is what the job salary range is for this role. That's, you know, a turnoff for candidates. So people who are paying attention to the whole experience, and the more that we're able to show that we're embedding diversity, equity inclusion principles at every step along the way. I think the more attractive we become to candidates.

Lenna Turner  20:02

What are three things an HR leader can do to advance the diversity and inclusion mission at their particular organization, what are three things you think that they can do?

Franchesca Carrington  20:13

I would say why that is just working, just partnering with, you know, HR and DEI, I know that a lot of times DEI sits within HR or people and culture and so having that strong partnership. So one is partnering with talent attraction, because that is key to, you know, recruiting talent and having that diverse pipeline, you know, so really partnering with your talent attraction or talent acquisition team, partnering with the University Relations team, I also say, number two is I work very closely with the HR business partners, because they are the people best in the business, they are connected to the business a little more. And so they are what I call my boots on the ground people, right, and so partnering with them to help me hold leaders accountable. So had to help me to talk about, you know, keeping the DEI conversation going, so that everyone understand what those goals are, and then having those conversations when those goals aren't being met, and celebrating when those goals aren't being met. And so partnering with your human resources, business partner, at least that has helped, and then thirdly is the benefits or total rewards, you know, person, so partnering with that group as well, because then we are talking about compensation, we're talking about benefits. So that's to me is, you know, talking about systems and, and tools and resources, you're putting in place to make sure that they are inclusive, that you know, that your policies are inclusive, and we just talked about pay equity. And so, you know, partnering with those three very important teams and functions, I think, helps.

Tommi Paris  22:06

Yeah, absolutely. You know, what I would say is, number one, I recommend focus on skill based learning versus like informational learning, for example, learning about various biases, you know, that's helpful. But skill building right on how to interrupt those biases, I think could be even more helpful and more powerful, particularly at the frontline manager, or the middle manager level, I think focusing in on that level will really improve the day to day realities of most of the employees. Because that's, that's the bulk of the organization. And we know that no, frontline managers, middle managers are really wholly responsible for the experience of employees each and every day. And so I think focusing in on that level is important with that, I think the interpersonal approach to D is very important, right? Focusing on micro messages, and psychological safety promoted keratoderma, all of that stuff is good. But systems change, I think, even more powerful, right, and can lead to enduring change over time. And at the end of the day, that's what we're doing this work, right. So the people who fallen behind us tomorrow can reap the benefits of the work that you and I do today. And I think the last thing to focus on for us, as HR Folk is really walking the talk within HR, you know, I think sometimes we can feel like we've got it figured out in HR, and we've got to move the rest of the organization. But sometimes making sure our houses in order to is very important, because the last thing we want is for the organization to point any fingers and to say, Well, you're not doing it. So why should we? I think, you know, I've been in a couple of situations where we needed to first get our house in order first. And then we'd be a little bit more credible when we go to the organization and have those same conversations.

Lenna Turner  23:59

Interesting. So, so key, I could talk more on that. Danielle, what three things might you suggest or say that companies can do or as an HR leader, what can we do to advance the DEI mission?

Danielle Beckford  24:15

Well, recruiting is my world. So I'll talk about that. First, I love Tommi the skill base taking it from recognizing the bias to figuring out how do we actually do something about that. So anything from recruiting and Franchesca touched on this as well, starting from the job ad really having a focus on diversity, looking at bias that might be in the language of your job ad or in your initial interview processes, getting diverse candidates in the door, making them feel comfortable and like this is the space for them. That's what's going to build diversity within the organization which is really a first step you use different techniques with either blind or masked resume reviews, training for managers doing bias evaluations on the job as well as events to more tactical things that we've done to improve By recruiting functions and this was mentioned to but having a having a diverse interview panel is huge. So I think on the recruiting front, and there's so many great colleges and organizations that specifically are tailored to a diverse population that are ready to partner with you and excited to have a new avenue for you to be posting jobs and getting candidates from so I think that's big. We talked about this a little bit as well. But keeping DEI on the forefront of my mind is something that as an HR leader, I think it's my job, I spend a lot of time with the CEO and the CFO and keeping the terminology keeping that in the conversation and having that lens and consulting with Lina on or dei team is something that I think is absolutely our responsibility. And then lastly, I think I love the phrase culture add rather than culture fit and thinking about really how diversity plays a part in creating new ideas and how that adds to the business and celebrating those wins. Being really specific about how someone having a voice that was different than everyone else's voice brought a new idea or pushed an initiative forward or did something interesting, really celebrating those wins to get to get buy in and to create a community around DEI and organizations, I think something HR can do.

Lenna Turner  26:16

I love all of that. There's just so much that makes this a very sort of inclusive conversation about those things. And I appreciate every bit of insight that you guys gave us today. I have another question. When was the first time you heard the term DEI? What was your reaction? I mean, you know, it's been around for a while now. But I remember the first time I started to hear about it, but I want to hear what you guys like, what does that term? What? What's going on? How did it resonate with you?

Tommi Paris  26:44

Yeah, so I guess for me, it resonated quite quickly, because as a black woman, right, I move through the world a particular way, as a gay woman, right? I've moved through the world in particular way, as a woman, millennial, I mean, you name it, I changed the world particular way. And so this work makes sense, just naturally for me. And so yeah, I think that's one of the reasons why I kind of found my way into the work. I think a lot of di professionals tend to find themselves in the work, maybe they're, you know, identified internally, or maybe they just have a genuine interest, or both, right. And so for me, obviously, it just kind of it resonated because of my lived experience. And one of the most important things that I feel like I've learned to do is to also connect with people who don't have an easy time connecting with the work naturally. And I think as practitioners, I think Lina, you talked about, you're a part of a group where you talk about skills of practitioners, and it was it take to be successful, I think, to be able to connect with everyone, or at least most people, you know, is important, because, you know, we all enter this work at different points, right? There's different points of entry. And, you know, there's no one point of entry that's better than the other. So being able to connect with everybody around this work, I think is important and to try to make it as accessible as possible, I think is important as well.

Lenna Turner  28:13

I agree. Danielle, do you remember when you first heard the term? And like, what's that? Do I want to know more? What? Oh, did somebody ask you another rousing question?

Danielle Beckford  28:21

Well, similar, actually, I started my HR career in the construction and material handling industry, so can't have thin skin there. That's and I went into, you know, it was one of those types of places that they've been around since the 60s, you can see smoke stains on the ceiling from when used to be able to smoke cigarettes in the office. So really, really old school. And then I went into a job that was healthcare and very, very advanced. And that was the first time that I had heard the term, it was an expectation, I was part of the job descriptions, it was part of the recruiting process, my role was recruiting focus there. And I remember thinking like, Oh, these are things that, you know, I have thought to be really important. Some of them are already infused in my work. But I thought this is great that companies are talking about this. And we're bridging that gap. You know, coming from the absolute opposite culture where it's politics or religion or anything came up, it was like an employee relations issue immediately coming into a culture where those conversations were encouraged and diversity was something that there was a focus on, I was really, really excited about and learning more about the terminology and the work that goes into it. This will be lifelong learning for me and something I'm really passionate about.

Lenna Turner  29:34

I have one question that I think is really important. So this question is this taking the first steps to creating a DEI mission statement can be very overwhelming. There's a lot of information out there any recommendations or advice on those very first steps like one thing they could do to get to move that needle?

Tommi Paris  29:53

So I would just offer that get the contribution of Every one representation at every level, right? You can't get everybody's perspective right on the mission statement or the vision statement that you're practicing. But just don't let it be just all senior leaders, right? Go to the middle of the organization, go to, you know, the entry levels of the organization, and, you know, create kind of a little steering committee or a little group that that kind of gives you some perspective on what you're creating, because it has to resonate to with everybody at the organization, not just the folks at

Franchesca Carrington  30:28

DEI advisory board. That is what I would say yes, find your champions and you know, find or create an advisory board at all levels, like Tommi said.

Danielle Beckford  30:41

I'd say echoing the same things and start with the why. What are you looking to accomplish? Why are we doing this start where you start. So getting a draft, getting some bullet points, having some things to kind of get some feedback on is a good first step.

Lenna Turner  30:56

I agree. And remember, start wherever you are, don't compare yourself to anybody else. Start wherever you are, and look around, do some of these first steps and understand what's going to work for you and your culture. So I appreciate all of you being here today, and look forward to next time. Thank you.

Kevin Plunkett  31:16

The Get Pay Right podcast is produced by Kevin Plunkett, Julie Murphy and Megan Nadeau. If there are topics you'd like to hear about, let us know and get pay right at Salary.com. Thank you all for listening, and make the time to get pay right.