Katherine Boardman – Successfully Becoming a Remote First Organization

Connect with Katherine

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Connect with Dwight:

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• dwight.brown@salary.com

Connect with David:

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• david.turetsky@salary.com

Podcast Manager, Karissa Harris:

• HRDataLabs@salary.com

 

Production by Affogato Media

Resources:

• BlueConic
• HR Data Labs Season 6 Episode 12
• HR Data Labs Season 6 Episode 10

• “Even though people had indicated through surveys that, ‘Yes, I want to be back [in the office]’, after 18 months of working solo at home, people acclimated—they reworked the structure of their lives.”
• “Organizations are communities . . . and even with remote work, there are opportunities [to spend spend time with co-workers].”

Announcer: 0:02

Here's an experiment for you. Take passionate experts in human resource technology, invite cross industry experts from inside and outside HR. Mix in what's happening in people analytics today. Give them the technology to connect, hit record for their discussions into a beaker. Mix thoroughly. And voila, you get the HR Data Labs podcast, where we explore the impact of data and analytics to your business. We may get passionate, and even irreverent, that count on each episode challenging and enhancing your understanding of the way people data can be used to solve real world problems. Now, here's your host, David Turetsky.

 

David Turetsky: 0:46

Hello, and welcome to the HR Data Labs podcast. I'm your host, David Turetsky. Like always, we try and find people inside and outside the world of human resources to bring you the latest on what's actually happening in the world of HR. Today, we have with us Katherine Boardman, who is the Chief People Officer at BlueConic. Hello, Katherine, how are you?

 

Katherine Boardman: 1:03

Hello, I'm doing well.

 

David Turetsky: 1:05

Katherine, give us a little bit about your background and how you got to where you are today.

 

Katherine Boardman: 1:09

Sure. So after graduating college, I started off in human resources on the recruiting side of the house. My first two roles were I was working in very large companies first in hospitality then in professional services. And then from there, I started my journey into technology, working with tech companies of varying sizes, and have found a niche in that sort of 100 to 300 person organization in SAAS. So you know, tech companies and that sort of software development, service focused and have been thoroughly enjoying working with teams, growing teams, and just sort of all the all that comes with that, which sometimes is unpredictable, and we figure it out as we go.

 

David Turetsky: 2:07

Sometimes having a 100 to 300 person organization brings so many more challenges than are in those big organizations, because you typically have a much smaller HR footprint. And so I've been in those situations, and I loved it, it was a lot of challenge. We had to wear a lot of hats.

 

Katherine Boardman: 2:24

Indeed, indeed.

 

David Turetsky: 2:26

So Katherine, what is one thing that no one knows about you?

 

Katherine Boardman: 2:31

Oh, that's a good one. So I do a lot of hot yoga. And for people who haven't done hot yoga, or have done some, I don't really notice the heat anymore, which makes absolutely no sense. You know, you would you would think it's like how can you not notice that it's so hot and sweaty in there. And after a couple 1000 practices, just doesn't doesn't really get to me, which is helpful when it's a hot summer

 

David Turetsky: 3:02

I'm sure it is. And I'm not going to make fun of day. Phoenix right now when I say it, but it's a it's a dry heat. It is not a dry heat in hot yoga. Right?

 

Katherine Boardman: 3:11

It is not at all.

 

David Turetsky: 3:14

Because the intent is to sweat as much as possible. Correct?

 

Katherine Boardman: 3:17

Exactly. Exactly.

 

David Turetsky: 3:19

Now, for someone who doesn't do it, the one thing I could ask or want to ask is, aren't you slipping all over the place on your mats?

 

Katherine Boardman: 3:26

No. So the key to that is to have a yoga mat towel. So a towel that is the size of your yoga mat. That is crucial. Because if you don't it is it would be a slip and slide experience and probably not a lot of fun and you might get hurt. So always want to have that yoga towel on top of your mat.

 

David Turetsky: 3:47

The entrepreneur in me says there might be a market there for a yoga mat towel combo.

 

Katherine Boardman: 3:54

And I think it may exist already.

 

David Turetsky: 3:57

Darn it!

 

Katherine Boardman: 3:58

But but think about it, you're all sweaty. If you have the combo, then you have to wash the whole thing as opposed to just washing the towel.

 

David Turetsky: 4:07

One would ask, shouldn't that be happening anyway?

 

Katherine Boardman: 4:13

Yeah, probably.

 

David Turetsky: 4:15

Awesome. So on that note, our topic for today is the personal nature of remote work. I think that for many of us in the HR world who are struggling right now, with remote versus hybrid versus fully back, we're kind of missing out on the personal nature of it. So let's get into it. From our conversations before, I understand that BlueConic is deciding to actually close its office in Boston, very close to where I am and make a shift to remote first. What actually led, what business decisions led to you making this decision?

 

Katherine Boardman: 5:02

So after or during the pandemic, you know, people got, you know, people were home, they were working fully remote. When we reopened our office, we found that even though people had indicated through surveys that yes, I, I want to be back in, I want to be working, you know, sort of shoulder to shoulder in the same spaces collaborating live with my teammates, that when we actually opened, far fewer people were coming in. That, you know, in that sort of year, 18 months of really being, if it was that long, you know, sort of working solo at home, or, you know, just not in an office that, you know, people acclimated, they sort of reworked sort of the structure of their lives in any number of ways. And it was really, it fits. So they were used to that. So that's what led to the sort of our decision to close the office and to, you know, take some space in a co-working space. So we're still, we still have a Boston presence, it's still our headquarters, it just looks, it looks different right now.

 

David Turetsky: 6:17

Have you gotten any feedback on that balance of the work from home, work together work in office? Have you gotten any feedback now that you've made that decision? Where people feel strongly one way or another? You know, basically, what I'm asking is, now that you've made the decision to go remote first, has anybody actually pushed back on it?

 

Katherine Boardman: 6:40

So people have have been very clear that they want in person time. And in sort of this, what the structure is now in terms of being primarily remote, is that it's really focusing people on how do we work together, sort of what feels, you know, kind of what feels best, we have some teams who, you know, we might have two members of a team who actually work very closely. One is in the US, one is in our Netherlands office. And they have found that they can be, you know, super productive, when they have in person time together. And they have to, because most of the time they're not together in person, that when they're not they need to really sort of structure and come up with ways to sort of how do we replicate that in person time. So I think it's a much more sort of focused and deliberate way of looking at what works best, you know, some teams, some teams have always been remotes. So working, continuing to work that way, utilizing zoom, any number of technology tools, Slack is huge for people for sort of that real time sort of back and forth, which almost starts to look a little bit like a live conversation. But circling back, it's really that people want that meaningful in person time.

 

David Turetsky: 8:15

Do you think it puts more pressure on that in person time? Like we had an off site, that was really an on site a few weeks ago, and I think it definitely put more pressure on that time to make sure that it was as productive as possible, so that we could take advantage of that, you know, colocation? And not, you know, I don't want to say the word waste time, because even just being there together, was actually very positive and very useful.

 

Katherine Boardman: 8:43

Yes. One of the primary benefits that I've seen to that, and even I feel it personally to being with people in person, and in being in each other's presence is there's an energy exchange, there are sort of organic conversations that pop up. So as much as you know, sort of, we need to think about how do we structure in person time, we have to be really deliberate about it. And take, you know, it's using that muscle, that organizational muscle on the part of leaders and managers and employees to say, Okay, what does it look like? How what and then once we're together, how are we going to use that time? And I think it's critical for how, however sort of scheduled you're going to have that time for sort of the owner of that meeting or gathering to ensure that, you know, there's social time at the end of the day, or you have breaks when people can just, hey, can I catch you in the hallway and oh, I had this idea. You have to have opportunities to do that.

 

David Turetsky: 9:53

I don't know if you remember back to when we were always in the office. It seems forever, it just seems forever ago. But it seems like in I have this, I'll give you an analogy. When I, when I lived in New York City, I always took it for granted that I lived in New York City. I didn't do touristy things. I did the things I had to do, because you know, I was a busy person, I was a busy professional, I always had to be on the move. And so every once in a while I'd look around and go, Hmm, this is really cool, I live in New York! But I never went to the met. I never went to, you know, the, the opera, I never did a bunch of things that I could have done. Do you think we have some of this grass greener stuff about what working in the office used to be like? Where, you know, we had that opportunity! We lived that for many, many decades. And you know, it's not very different now, is it?

 

Katherine Boardman: 10:46

I think there is a, you know, maybe it's a recency bias, or I think the, we do sort of look back at that always in office time. And think about, gosh, how many hours were spent commuting, how much time was spent, not really needing to think about sort of how am I going to meet up with this person? So there's been this shift. So in a lot of cases, people aren't commuting, maybe it's not every day, maybe they're commuting once or twice a week. So that time on the other end has, when they're at home when they're remote, has been filled in with often very meaningful activity, whether it's time with, you know, for oneself, with family, with kids. And that really, we started to learn how to do that when we were all at home during the pandemic. So I think the pandemic sort of gave us a very shared experience around, you know, this is so different, this is completely different from what I'm used to, I can't believe that I've now learned to work in this opposite way of how I worked before.

 

Announcer: 12:08

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David Turetsky: 12:19

Let's transition a little bit and talk about what steps you're taking to remain true to the BlueConic culture, and who you are as an organization.

 

Katherine Boardman: 12:30

So they're, you know, at the very sort of top of the list is making sure that we're conscious of what are all those pieces that make up our culture? How we communicate with one another. How we sort of think about, okay, if we have this sort of this new setup, which is an amazing opportunity, right, people can still be remote in a way that people really want to be now, it's how they want to work, while also offering opportunities to gather. So doing that, and then we we do a lot, making sure that the way we communicate with people that they're always it's always in different formats. There's Slack announcements, there are emails from our CEO every Monday morning to kick off the week, there are sort of structured, you know, guidelines around how often should you meet with your team. We use, we use software, we use a platform that we can sort of put out agendas and take notes in our one on one. So best practice for managers is weekly, or bi weekly, one on ones with each of their direct reports. So that the that communication and connection is it's constant. It's different, but it's always it's always in play. And in doing that, and in addition to bi weekly stand up meetings, you know, smaller gatherings, even impromptu activities that we're that we're reinforcing, reinforcing culture. And again, it's, it's being mindful and really being very aware of what are those pieces that when you put it all together all the ingredients, you end up with this with this wonderful, wonderful soup?

 

David Turetsky: 14:31

And not to not to go too much on that analogy, but I love soup. But who doesn't love soup? But to talk about it, are you constantly testing the soup to make sure that it still has the consistency in the formula that made it what it was? Meaning have you done employee engagement studies, are you I know you talked about listening, but that's what managers should always have been listening but have you have you listened to your managers to say, you know, we're getting some productivity issues, we need to double down on this or that. What ways are you testing the soup?

 

Katherine Boardman: 15:08

Sure. So we do have our annual employment satisfaction survey coming up shortly in the fall. So, you know, that will, you know, we'll get some some input and some, even some benchmarks, you know, how are we comparing to last year when the landscape was was a little different? We, we have sort of these continuous feedback loops. So our people ops team has certainly regular sort of discussions and check ins with managers and, you know, sort of ongoing topic is, how are people doing? What are we what are we hearing and seeing from people? One of the reasons I love an organization this size, the size of BlueConic, is that we are certainly large enough, where we have, you know, sort of the sort of our workforce is it's dynamic, we have, you know, sort of a lot of lots of different folks playing different roles wearing different hats. We also are not so large that we don't know, what's sort of what's up with folks. So we can also, you know, is someone not really sort of checking in, is there someone that seems sort of disengaged, and that's, you know, that's, that's certainly one of our priorities, both as the people operations and for leaders to say, hey, you know, you really, you know, you have to use your eyes and your ears to really watch what's going on, because people will, they'll give you signals. And when you, if you're, if you think something's going on, something's likely going on. So we have a responsibility. The responsibility is, is goes both ways, though. Because part of our, you know, when I think about our values and culture, it, you know, employees, our team needs to come also in say, Hey, I'm, I'm having a challenge right now.

 

David Turetsky: 17:10

Right.

 

Katherine Boardman: 17:11

And, and that being able to do that having that psychological safety is, it's part of our culture, it's part of who we are that, you know, we all show up as we're one person, you know, we don't have this. I'm work Katherine, and I'm home Katherine, I'm just Katherine. So really important to kind of keep that in mind, too, is we're all on this journey.

 

David Turetsky: 17:36

But that takes a level of maturity, Katherine that I think, for many employees, especially with remote work, they might find it challenging to raise their hand, given a lot of the mental health crises that we've been dealing with, around well, lack of a better way of saying, you know, people feeling emotional, or disconnected or, or having just challenges with what's the complexity of what's going on in the day. I mean, this is just, every year we have new challenges, but the pandemic has driven significant challenges on a lot of fronts, like health care, home care, elder care, child care, lots of things, especially to women, and especially women of color, have faced tremendous, tremendous pressures in not just returning to work, because many of them left the workforce during the pandemic, but also their their ability to feel comfortable and reaching out. Do you think and hopefully, this isn't a curveball, you're not anticipating but, you know, hopefully, in your culture and in the BlueConic culture, people feel that ability and that maturity to to actually raise their hand and whether it's with their bosses or with the HR or employee relations group to actually be able to be that brave, I guess, is the question.

 

Katherine Boardman: 18:57

Yes. Yes. You know, I think, David I look, you know, when I think about sort of the employee, the journey, the lifecycle and it starts, it starts from that very, that very first initial point of contact, often that is, you know, someone has applied for a role here. And there, you know, the very first conversation or email that they receive is from someone on our talent team. So our talent team, our recruiters are, as they engage with potential future BlueCrewers are doing two things. They are certainly assessing, you know, does this person have skills experience that, you know, would satisfy what we need in this role that's open. Also relaying to the candidate as they engage with us, what who we are and what type of sort of organization and community they will be joining, they're joining a community, if they start here. Certainly it was my own experience when I was, you know, first email I received from someone on our talent team. And there was a, it was, I think it's for the Talent Team, it's sort of having a commitment to connecting with each person that, you know, is a candidate. And that takes, that takes a lot. You know, there are certainly, you know, they could just be sort of checking boxes, but their commitment, again, you know, coming back to our values and our culture is that that, you know, that future employee, or at least that candidate, even if they don't move forward, is having an experience that aligns with what, you know, that wow, that is a place that I would feel safe to be who I am and that would have my back if something were going on. So even if it's not sort of sort of stated in a way that here's what you can be here. I think people with the written words with what we're saying, and then the experience are are getting that. I think it's that's vitally important for organizations now to that's the work is how do we as leaders, how do we, as HR teams, sort of adapt and make sure that we are taking care?

 

David Turetsky: 21:27

Well, we've seen some very famous examples of how companies are not that interested in the mental health slash the, the investments that people have had to make, to stay employed and to, to dedicate to a company, and then they see the return on the investment, or th lack thereof, from the organization that they've been working for. So you know what I mean? It's

 

Katherine Boardman: 21:54

Yes.

 

David Turetsky: 21:54

It's not, you know, I wish I wish many more organizations, especially were more public, like BlueConic is, but I wish more organizations were more caring slash create an employee value proposition that you seem to be living, which is, yeah, we care about you, as much as we want you to be productive. We care about you. That's just it's not the way things have gone. In fact, there was a there was something on the news this morning, of course, it was only a fly by from the news perspective that there was a study done on I think it was an Indian call center recently, which said that in the headline was employees are 18%, less productive remote. And I laughed, like, Yeah, this is called lies, damned lies and statistics, because you're not telling me, you know, what was the sample size? What was the timeframe? All that other stuff? Your big headline here is employees are 18% less productive? Yeah. Okay. Great. Thank you. That's very useful to put out there. Hey, are you listening to this and thinking to yourself, Man, I wish I could talk to David about this? Well, you're in luck, we have a special offer. For listeners of the HR data Labs podcast, a free half hour call with me about any of the topics we cover on the podcast, or whatever is on your mind. Go to Salary.com/HRDLconsulting, to schedule your FREE 30 minute call today. Let's talk a little bit about some examples you might be able to provide, some good examples, of the type of activities and investments that BlueConic makes to make those meaningful, impactful interactions. You talked a little bit about having a workspace like a co-workspace someplace. What are the other investments you you're making?

 

Katherine Boardman: 23:45

Sure. So we have for some time, when folks have joined join the crew, BlueCrew. And we've

 

David Turetsky: 23:54

That's great.

 

Katherine Boardman: 23:55

Right? It's great. I love it. Blue Crew, so we have for everyone headspace memberships. So you know, sort of again, you know, you're the only one who can take care of you. And but I can give you some tools. And I think part of when we offer tools and similarly to when I was talking about the different modes of communication and formats for how we sort of, sort of bring bring information to people share knowledge, not everything fits everybody. We also were a multicultural company. We are based in the US. We were founded in the Netherlands, we have a team in the Netherlands couple other locations. So you know, and we certainly we are richer for it. But every not everyone likes the same thing. So so between the headspace app and making sure that we are, kind of our benefits fit who we are now. So that means that we, we're promoting our EAP. We are making sure that when we do catch wind of someone's having a struggle, there's outreach, you know, one of our people ops managers or specialist is reaching out and connecting with people. So there are those pieces. We also are, you know, depending on sort of what the kind of time of year is, you know, we'll we'll recognize, for instance, Pride month with, you know, sort of Drag Bingo, we have, we have a book club, we have a monthly bi monthly book clubs, so it's always nonfiction titles. And we have read books, such as Culture Map by Erin Meyer, which is a phenomenal resource. And that's another opportunity both to get people together, but also to have sort of a topic to sort of center on to anchor on that we can then think about, okay, how does this apply to us? How do you know whether it's workstyles, Atomic Habits was another recent read. And so which then is, you know, there are takeaways from that, so, okay, now, I, you know, I have some skill building, I have, you know, some tools to use. So we do that, and then we have learning and development opportunities every quarter, that could be small group, that will also be all staff. So, again, a lot of variety, so that over the course of a month, a couple of months, everyone is getting a number of opportunities to sort of learn, maybe gain some perspective that they didn't have sort of a little bit of opening minds a little bit more. And, and, you know, a shout out to coffee and donuts, which is just a great way to get paired up with someone that you don't know, and on another team and spend 20 minutes together and just share and figure out where am I going to travel to on vacation next? And how do you take your coffee?

 

David Turetsky: 27:13

That's a great idea. Those are really great ideas. I love the book club idea as well. I read a few books just recently that not to give too many examples. But there's a couple of great books on inclusive leadership and inclusive language. One by Jackie Ferguson, the other one by Jackie Brown, the inclusive language book by Jackie Ferguson is actually an incredible eye opener, I got emotional reading it because there are some things in here that language we use every day, we don't realize it could be hurting people. And so when I talk to people inside of Salary.com, I talk to them about reading this book, not just because it's a good book, and it's a very quick read. But because it gives us an opportunity to sit in someone else's seat, or actually walk in their shoes, and understand, you know, what, from their perspective, the language that you're using, not you personally, could be better. And then the inclusive leadership book by sorry, Jennifer Brown, wonderful book on how to think differently, and how to act as a leader by thinking about how other people perceive you. Wonderful books. So and by the by, they're both phenomenal guests of our podcasts. But anyway, so my point is that I love the idea. Because when we start looking at other people's perspectives and talking to them, I think even more remotely than we did, because as I said before, I think we have a very hard time when we're co-located, making optimal use of the colocation time. But really, you know, when you get that opportunity to reach out to people and talk to people, internally, when you have those moments, it just seems like it's such a great use of time and a great use of the, the space that you create for appreciation.

 

Katherine Boardman: 29:01

Right, right. I think that, you know, when a zoom calls starts, and you have that first minute or two, before you just dive right into the topic to the whole reason that you're having the the zoom in the first place, there is a in that minute or two, the very natural sort of activity that we do is a little bit of small talk, and often through that, whether it's talking about the weather, or you know, sort of your your favorite sports team, or it's, you know, sort of oh, you're just back from vacation. How was it? Oh, yes, Portugal was phenomenal. Thanks. Those you find those sorts of commonalities. And again, we're communities so organizations are, I think when you put when you look at them through the or apply the lens of community to them and think about the We all are a part of any number of communities in our lives, our neighborhood, a gathering place, a school, and our workplace. So even when we're remote, there is an opportunity. And I think we, you know, back to the earlier sort of thought thoughts about when we were in the office five days a week, we do need to be more mindful now about how that, oh, I had this opportunity with this person for a half hour we're going to spend, we'll still spend 25 minutes talking about talking about the topic at hand. I was in a meeting this morning, and we started off the first five minutes talking about electric bikes. And I'd seen an electric road bike, I mean, mountain bike with these huge tires. I mean, so it was just, you know, and again, an out of that, am I Oh, so that person over there, she she just got a mountain bike. Isn't that cool? Or she got an electric bike again. Yeah,

 

David Turetsky: 30:58

Great ideas for us. Because, for example, I without talking to my crew, without talking to the people I work with, I didn't know that most of them actually play hockey just like me. And we're, you know, when we get to the office, at one, one point, we're going to try and get a group together to get out on the ice and play together. Which, you know, hopefully from an insurance perspective we're covered. No, but seriously, it's it just drives so much. Colloquialism. No. What's the word? Collegiate?

 

Katherine Boardman: 31:30

Yeah, that one...

 

David Turetsky: 31:35

Yeah, it drives so much commonality. Let's put it that way. Yeah. So and that's at the end of the day, when we're remote, and, you know, we feel kind of lonely. It'd be nice to actually remember those moments that we work or just shut somebody up on Slack or on on Teams and say, Hey, do you have a moment? Now, the other question I want to ask you, Catherine is do you do you use ESGs still? Or ERG is the Employee Resource Groups?

 

Katherine Boardman: 32:01

Right. So we have we have a DEI&B Council, we have not yet launched ERGs. That's certainly on our roadmap, and we sort of later in the year, certainly, as we this idea of community, and I think the evolution of a, of an organization of a company, sort of net, another sort of roadmap target for us is sort of bringing structure around, it's gonna be called Blue Crew in the community. So, you know, sort of that, you know, there's a lot of, and I think this, this existed before, certainly in organizations that I have been, and I think the pandemic shone, you know, an even brighter light on being in one's community around where one lives opportunities to volunteer, recognizing that there are people that don't have enough to eat, and, you know, how do we, you know, whether it's volunteering at a food pantry, but sort of that, you know, really recognizing that and saying, now, we, you know, we have a responsibility as individuals, and I think we have, you know, we have, there's some power in being a, you know, larger than a party of one, to kind of go out into the community, whether it's to kind of work on a cleanup a playground, or, or paint in a homeless shelter, all those opportunities. So we're gonna put some structure around that in the coming months, so that we can kind of help folks, you know, kind of, and whether it's here in Boston, or, you know, certainly certainly throughout the US, in states where we have folks and into the Netherlands, and it will take different shapes and forms in different areas. But I think that's, you know, that's another way that we progress along. And, again, connection points, interests that people have, and things that are just, you know, certainly both passion projects, but that are really sort of dear to people.

 

David Turetsky: 34:06

I'll never forget the time I spent with ADP where we did Habitat for Humanity. And the people from the Marbre office, we went to Worcester and help build someone's home. Never forget that experience. And I still have pictures and, you know, in the friendships, and you know, the deepening of the relationships that we had with that group was wonderful.

 

Katherine Boardman: 34:26

Yeah, that's great.

 

David Turetsky: 34:35

Katherine, thank you so much for joining the HR Data Labs podcast. It was really wonderful to finally have you on the show.

 

Katherine Boardman: 34:41

Thank you so much. It's been great to spend this time with you, David.

 

David Turetsky: 34:46

And thank you for sharing all your learnings from the BlueConic journey that you've been on with remote work. We really do appreciate it. Sure. Thanks. Thank you. Thank you very much. And thank you all for listening. Take care and stay safe.

 

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